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nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2011
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I have never considered dodging to be strictly limited to ranged combat; in brawling or melee combat, a defender can bob and weave or sidestep out of the way of an incoming attack in addition to being able to parry. |
Just to be clear, you're saying you've house-ruled this? Because the book is pretty explicit that Dodge is a reaction against ranged attacks, not melee.
| crmcneill wrote: | | a person who has a high Melee Combat / Parry (whichever you use) does not become a clumsy idiot just because they switch to Brawling Combat / Parry. |
Yeah, this sort of thing always bothered my group, too. It always seemed like there should be some synergy mechanism. Someone with a high Blaster score ought to be reasonably competent when firing a slugthrower, despite the difference in weapons. We tried two different approaches:
One approach we tried was just giving +1 for every 1D you have in a similar skill above the skill you're trying to use (GM's definition of "similar," of course). So if you had 3D Dex and 8D Blaster, but had not trained Slugthrower, you would get +5 to your Dex roll to fire the Slugthrower.
The second approach we took was just trying to average the two similar die codes (rounding down). Using the same example, if you had Blaster 8D and Dex 3D, you could fire a slugthrower with 5D+1.
Some other pairings we thought were reasonable included: Brawling/Melee Parry, Melee Comabat/Lightsaber, Starfighter Piloting/Starship Piloting, etc. |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I realize that, but the problem is that that ability to be evasive should be a cross-skill ability, as a person who has a high Melee Combat / Parry (whichever you use) does not become a clumsy idiot just because they switch to Brawling Combat / Parry. That ability to evade attacks should stay with them regardless. |
To some extent. Not having a weapon will cramp thier style though.
I suggest letting them use melee parry but at a disadvantage (probably 5 point) kinda like how they let character use brawling parry against melee attacks (at a 10 point disadvantage) in the RAW. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| nuclearwookiee wrote: | | Just to be clear, you're saying you've house-ruled this? Because the book is pretty explicit that Dodge is a reaction against ranged attacks, not melee. |
Not a house rule, merely an observation that defense in melee and brawling are a combination of both parry and evasion (also known as dodging).
| Quote: | | Someone with a high Blaster score ought to be reasonably competent when firing a slugthrower, despite the difference in weapons. |
This came up recently in another topic. Someone (cheshire, I think) suggested that Blaster and Firearms be folded into the same skill, since the usage is so similar. I'm inclined to agree.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | To some extent. Not having a weapon will cramp thier style though.
I suggest letting them use melee parry but at a disadvantage (probably 5 point) kinda like how they let character use brawling parry against melee attacks (at a 10 point disadvantage) in the RAW. |
That is fine for that specific issue, but my point remains that there should be some form of overlapping reflex for evading attack regardless of whether the attack is ranged, brawling or melee.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jmanski
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno. There's a difference between using a knife to defend yourself against a knife and ducking for cover to defend yourself from blaster fire.
The two parry skills are similar enough, I grant you that, but Dodge should be for evading ranged attacks, otherwise it becomes too powerful, IMO (especially when its already as powerful as it is).
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | To some extent. Not having a weapon will cramp their style though.
I suggest letting them use melee parry but at a disadvantage (probably 5 point) kinda like how they let character use brawling parry against melee attacks (at a 10 point disadvantage) in the RAW. |
That is fine for that specific issue, but my point remains that there should be some form of overlapping reflex for evading attack regardless of whether the attack is ranged, brawling or melee. |
I agree with jmanski. I can see combining melee and brawling defense. A lot of the footwork is the same, but with missle attacks is is a lot different. You don;t actually dodge the bolt but move to make yourself a harder target to aim at., and that type of movement doesn't help against blades and other close in attacks.
I could see melee defense working against slow moving ranged attacks, though. Such as thrown weapons. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I agree with jmanski. I can see combining melee and brawling defense. A lot of the footwork is the same, but with missle attacks is is a lot different. You don;t actually dodge the bolt but move to make yourself a harder target to aim at., and that type of movement doesn't help against blades and other close in attacks. |
Is that always the case? My understanding of the theoretical concept of dodging a bullet was that, if you could see the person who was shooting at you, you dodged him, not the bullet, so that you ducked or moved to one side or dropped and rolled when you saw the physical indicators that he was going to fire. Would that not also be a form of Dodge as well?
| Quote: | | I could see melee defense working against slow moving ranged attacks, though. Such as thrown weapons. |
Agreed.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Many say that with the parry's but forget in the write up FOR both brawl and melee parry, it takes into account you bobbing, weaving, blocking, barrel rolling, back flipping etc. |
I realize that, but the problem is that that ability to be evasive should be a cross-skill ability, as a person who has a high Melee Combat / Parry (whichever you use) does not become a clumsy idiot just because they switch to Brawling Combat / Parry. That ability to evade attacks should stay with them regardless. |
True, but you do realize by the RAW melee parry is what weapon you USE to parry/avoid attacks with, while brawl is what you are avoiding. So while i might be good at avoiding a fellow boxer, i may not be as good at avoiding a grapple.
Which might be more of a reason to keep the 2 parries out of their respective combat skills, but just combine them into ONE parry skill.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So while i might be good at avoiding a fellow boxer, i may not be as good at avoiding a grapple. |
Both would be covered under Brawling Parry. The differing skills would be if you picked up or drew a Melee Weapon, at which point the skill used would shift.
| Quote: | | Which might be more of a reason to keep the 2 parries out of their respective combat skills, but just combine them into ONE parry skill. |
I still feel that the ability to attack and parry would be integral parts of brawling, not separate skills. However, Martial Arts could be treated as an Advanced skill with both Brawling Combat and Brawling Parry as prerequisites, which would link the two of them together under a single skill...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Battle for the Golden Sun / 1e |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Battle for the Golden Sun, textbox on page 8 wrote: | Battles On and In the Sea
• PCs use their swimming codes (plus one die)
for movement and dodging. Seatroopers use
their base swimming code. |
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I always interpreted that the +1D came from the Rebel dive suits with unlimited power cells that the PCs were using.
| atgxtg wrote: | Did anyone remember the extra 1D for PCs? well WEG didn't on page 34, when the PCs fight the sea AT-AT Swimmer
| Battle for the Golden Sun, page 34 wrote: |
The Laser Batteries. Any PCs who fail the
hide/sneak rolls are spotted by the Swimmer's
crew. The Swimmer trains its two medium blaster
batteries upon those PCs and fires four bolts that
boil the surrounding ocean. PCs must make
swimming rolls to evade the blasts, otherwise roll
for damage. |
So do I get a prize? |
That doesn't say the PCs don't get the +1D. It just says they must make swimming rolls to avoid damage from the Swimmer's laser batteries.
| atgxtg wrote: | Here are the seatrooper stats from the adventure:
[b]Aquatic Stormtroopers (Seatroopers):
DEX 2D, blaster 4D, brawling parry 4D;
MEC 3D, waveskimmer operation 3D+2;
STR 2D+2, brawling 3D+2, swimming
4D+2. All other attributes and skills 2D.
Equipment: Stormtrooper Aquatic Armor (+3 pips to STR for
damage purposes only, does not reduce DEX codes, increases
swimming by 2D), built-in comlink, blaster spear gun (blaster
damage 5D, spear damage 4D), concussion grenades (damage
5D). |
The textbox on p. 8 it says Seatroopers use their base swimming code for movement and dodging, but the Stormtrooper stats say their armor "increases swimming by 2D". That is a contradiction, but when I've ran this adventure I went with the Seatrooper armor giving a +2D bonus to swimming and the Rebel underwater suits giving a +1D bonus (and no bonus inherent in just being PCs). It is reasonable that swim fins alone (which both suits have) could boost the swim skill by some amount, and these were both entire suits designed for underwater action.
| atgxtg wrote: | Another oddity is the Swimmer AT-AT damage. The first section states that blaster damage underwater is reduced by 2D, but the lower section says that the PCs reduce thier STR code by 2D, and that the AT-AT's damage is doubled!
It was 1E, and before the scaling system got introduced, buy even so it's nasty. Nearly an autokill in 1E and that's hard to get. It is an autokill in 2E+.Maybe somebody goofed and the blaster damage was supposed to be reduced by 2D per the rules) rather than STR? |
Yeah, based on the evidence it seems extremely likely it was an oops in handling the 1e scaling rules. This was a very early product in the WEG SW 1e line.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Dodging while swimming? |
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| garhkal wrote: | But what about swimming? I was always under the impression that if under water, your swim skill is used for dodging as well. BUT reading the R&E rule book i see nothing on that.
Does anyone remember any official ruling on it? |
| The Brain wrote: | Star Wars Adventure Journal #1
The Spira Regatta adventure page 78
"Characters use swimming codes for movement and dodging, though merely swimming about in a diving suit requires no roll" |
I think we have a winner for the 2e ruling.
| nuclearwookiee wrote: | | Really, the Dodge skill itself is the aberration here. If you use the various Operation skills to make vehicle dodges, and use Swimming skill to dodge while swimming, why is there even a Dodge skill in the first place? By extension (especially considering the official rule for Swimming), wouldn't it make sense that you would just use the Running skill to dodge while on foot? |
That's a good observation. I think the issue comes from the fact that Dodge goes back to 1e while the Running skill comes from 2e with movement rules revamped in 2e and again in R&E. Sure they could have combined Running and Dodge into one skill, and it would make sense if a GM wanted to house rule it that way. I personally have renamed Running "Balance/Running" to make clear it includes non-running attempts at balance (like tight-rope walking).
I have combined the parry skills with the corresponding combat skills. I think evasion is built into parrying, while the primary focus of Dodge is evading range weapons. However I do allow Dodge to be used at a penalty for other things (such as brawling or melee parry attempts), which could help characters with very high Dodge but low Brawling and Melee. Dodge could possibly even be used as a reaction when a character fails a Running check to avoid or reduce damage, when applicable to the situation. And I do also sometimes use a 'skill synergy bonus' where one skill can boost another skill (like the pip for each dice difference stated), when applicable.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Pel
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Another oddity is the Swimmer AT-AT damage...
Nearly an autokill in 1E and that's hard to get. It is an autokill in 2E+ |
No disrespect, but I just have to ask: When is getting shot by an AT-AT not an autokill? 
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Bringing this back up with a related question. So by the quote provided, someone shot at underwater uses their swimming skill as the 'dodge' roll. BUT what about if they're being brawled (or melee). IS that still their swim skill?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Well, rereading this conversation, it's interesting to see how my thoughts on Dodge have evolved, and how far back my Dodge as an Advanced Skill meanderings go. I'm immediately moved to wonder if a separate (A) Dodge skill for Swimming might apply. If nothing else, a Swimming character would have a separate Velocity Modifier while Swimming...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Bringing this back up with a related question. So by the quote provided, someone shot at underwater uses their swimming skill as the 'dodge' roll. BUT what about if they're being brawled (or melee). IS that still their swim skill? |
No. The correlation is using the movement skills for dodging range attacks while in that mode of movement/environment. Brawling parry or melee parry would still be used underwater.
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