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Alliance TIE Fighter
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
And you want most of this laser cannon to be exposed? Because I was taking cues from the T/I and thinking I was building it too large!

My feeling on the Interceptor's cannon was that they were similar in size to the cannon on an X-Wing, and appear deceptively smaller because they are mounted on the wing edges, as opposed to a free standing mounts on the X-Wing.

Quote:
I could do that, but I think the truncated cone looks better, too. Maybe add some boxy elements sticking out of either side of it, running into the wing pylon roots and the back of the ball?

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I agree that the cone looks better, but I also like being able to tie elements of the EU back in by providing a practical explanation for their existence.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
My feeling on the Interceptor's cannon was that they were similar in size to the cannon on an X-Wing, and appear deceptively smaller because they are mounted on the wing edges, as opposed to a free standing mounts on the X-Wing.
All the potentially accurate images I can find depict T/I laser cannons like this, as a very small tube-shaped emitter extruded back into an irregular pentagonal splitter, and powered by a thin conduit. I suspect that laser cannons can be built on a highly non-linear platform—unlike a projectile gun—and that a lot of crucial components of the laser cannons exist in the wing pylons and cockpit.

Quote:
I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I agree that the cone looks better, but I also like being able to tie elements of the EU back in by providing a practical explanation for their existence.
I like to turn mixed feelings into mixed shapes. A boxy extrusion on the back could be what imperial standard hyperdrives look like, but Alliance ones could be a little different in shape, with similar features but also some differences. Just a more relaxed tie-in, and also a little cooler looking space ship.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
All the potentially accurate images I can find depict T/I laser cannons like this, as a very small tube-shaped emitter extruded back into an irregular pentagonal splitter, and powered by a thin conduit. I suspect that laser cannons can be built on a highly non-linear platform—unlike a projectile gun—and that a lot of crucial components of the laser cannons exist in the wing pylons and cockpit.

Hmm. Seems somewhat off that these cannon inflict similar damage to the X-Wing's much larger cannon...

Quote:
I like to turn mixed feelings into mixed shapes. A boxy extrusion on the back could be what imperial standard hyperdrives look like, but Alliance ones could be a little different in shape, with similar features but also some differences. Just a more relaxed tie-in, and also a little cooler looking space ship.

Works for me. Lay on, Macduff.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

Hmm. Seems somewhat off that these cannon inflict similar damage to the X-Wing's much larger cannon...
My friend Dale has a .22 magnum revolver which fits in the palm of a small hand, but does a hell of a lot more damage than a 10/22 rifle. Size isn't always everything in a gun. On top of that, almost everything in a TIE is gonna be severely miniaturized. A T/I simply couldn't fit an X-wing's KX-9 laser cannons.

I think we're seeing the very tip of the (miniaturized) iceberg here, and the rest of it is inside the cockpit and wing pylons. Compare the T/I laser cannons to the very tips of an X-wing's.
crmcneill wrote:

Works for me. Lay on, Macduff.
Will do.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
crmcneill wrote:

Hmm. Seems somewhat off that these cannon inflict similar damage to the X-Wing's much larger cannon...
My friend Dale has a .22 magnum revolver which fits in the palm of a small hand, but does a hell of a lot more damage than a 10/22 rifle. Size isn't always everything in a gun. On top of that, almost everything in a TIE is gonna be severely miniaturized. A T/I simply couldn't fit an X-wing's KX-9 laser cannons.

I think we're seeing the very tip of the (miniaturized) iceberg here, and the rest of it is inside the cockpit and wing pylons. Compare the T/I laser cannons to the very tips of an X-wing's.
crmcneill wrote:

Works for me. Lay on, Macduff.
Will do.


But that .22 mag pistol won't have nearly the range or accuracy of a 10/22 as a tradeoff for its size.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:

But that .22 mag pistol won't have nearly the range or accuracy of a 10/22 as a tradeoff for its size.
It'll have more range. That comes from muzzle velocity, which is far higher in .22 mag even with a 1-inch barrel. Accuracy could go either way; that's about tiny differences in how the bullet leaves the muzzle. It's got a smaller magazine (5 round cylinder vs. 10 rd drum mag) and a lot shorter sight radius, so it's harder to use and you have less tries.

No one is saying you get identical results from non-identical equipment, but D6 stats are generalizations anyways. My point is that it's entirely rational to think that the Empire could have miniaturized and packed away a comparable system to that which the Alliance just hung out on a wingtip in its entirety.

Regarding the hyperdrive box, what do you think of this? I could keep going in this direction and add a little detail, or I could build something which more closely resembles the box back from Vader's TIE Advanced x1, which Kenner used for all their TIE toys.

Also note that you can now see from the cockpit, where there is a view port and no longer a wall, and that I have extruded the wing hinge to the wingtip and mounted the laser cannon emitter assembly atop it to suggest more gun hardware hidden inside the hinge. Should I fit standard TIE ball cockpit laser hardpoints, such as the T/I has? I also plan to put a standard hatch and strip windows in the top.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
No one is saying you get identical results from non-identical equipment, but D6 stats are generalizations anyways. My point is that it's entirely rational to think that the Empire could have miniaturized and packed away a comparable system to that which the Alliance just hung out on a wingtip in its entirety.

I suppose. I just can't get away from feeling it looks kinda...puny...

Quote:
Regarding the hyperdrive box, what do you think of this? I could keep going in this direction and add a little detail

My only issue is that it is too hollow; my intent for adding the extension in the first place was that it would be the housing for the hyperdrive, and having the extension be mostly open space makes it hard to justify that. Most descriptions refer to the central hexagon (both on stock TIEs and on your model) as a rear window, yet no internal views of the TIE show that rear view. In addition, there are other TIE models, like the TIE/gt that don't have the rear "window" at all.

Quote:
or I could build something which more closely resembles the box back from Vader's TIE Advanced x1, which Kenner used for all their TIE toys.

That's the direction I was leaning earlier, and there is actually EU precedent for doing it that way. The extended TIE fighter is found in both the Marvel comics and in the later X-Wing comics, in addition to the Kenner toy. The cone extension was my original idea, but I like the idea of incorporating something that already exists in the EU and giving it purpose.

Quote:
Also note that you can now see from the cockpit, where there is a view port and no longer a wall

Not sure what you mean here; are you talking about the rear port in the back of the cockpit?

Quote:
and that I have extruded the wing hinge to the wingtip and mounted the laser cannon emitter assembly atop it to suggest more gun hardware hidden inside the hinge.

That works.

Quote:
Should I fit standard TIE ball cockpit laser hardpoints, such as the T/I has?

No. This ship is going to be equipped with my Modular Mission Package concept, and part of the justification for making room for that package was moving the lasers out to the wings.

Quote:
I also plan to put a standard hatch and strip windows in the top.

Perfect. I'd like for this thing to incorporate as many stock TIE components as possible.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
My only issue is that it is too hollow; my intent for adding the extension in the first place was that it would be the housing for the hyperdrive, and having the extension be mostly open space makes it hard to justify that. Most descriptions refer to the central hexagon (both on stock TIEs and on your model) as a rear window, yet no internal views of the TIE show that rear view. In addition, there are other TIE models, like the TIE/gt that don't have the rear "window" at all...

Quote:
or I could build something which more closely resembles the box back from Vader's TIE Advanced x1, which Kenner used for all their TIE toys.

That's the direction I was leaning earlier, and there is actually EU precedent for doing it that way. The extended TIE fighter is found in both the Marvel comics and in the later X-Wing comics, in addition to the Kenner toy. The cone extension was my original idea, but I like the idea of incorporating something that already exists in the EU and giving it purpose.
I have been planning to fill that space with detail, and after looking at the extended TIEs, I can incorporate some major elements from that, too.
crmcneill wrote:

Quote:
Also note that you can now see from the cockpit, where there is a view port and no longer a wall

Not sure what you mean here; are you talking about the rear port in the back of the cockpit?
That was a roundabout way of pointing out that I modeled the forward viewport instead of just leaving it blank. Sorry.
crmcneill wrote:
This ship is going to be equipped with my Modular Mission Package concept, and part of the justification for making room for that package was moving the lasers out to the wings.
Want me to fit some latches and data/power ports to the underside of the cockpit?
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so I've got this so far. What do you think of the hyperdrive? Filled in/tied back to the EU enough?

Hatch completed, so that's nice.

I'm having trouble affixing landing gear to the wing pylons in a mechanically reasonable, but non-clunky-looking way. What would you say to landing gear that folds down from the wings, or extends from the ball?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Okay, so I've got this so far. What do you think of the hyperdrive? Filled in/tied back to the EU enough?

I like the general shape, but IMO, it needs to be thicker. Also, you need to include the ion drives in there somewhere.

Quote:
Hatch completed, so that's nice.

Looks good.

Quote:
I'm having trouble affixing landing gear to the wing pylons in a mechanically reasonable, but non-clunky-looking way. What would you say to landing gear that folds down from the wings, or extends from the ball?

The wings are a possibility, but there isn't typically a lot of room left over in the ball. Ideally, I'd prefer that they be mounted on the wings; I'm picturing a strut that telescopes vertically through the wing roots with landing gear feet that fold out to horizontal.

As far as the modular mission package, if I'm basing the design on the TIE from the Cross-Sections book, the lowest section of the TIE ball is where the fuel tanks are, with the MMP above the fuel tank. The easiest way to mount it would be a tray that slides in and out horizontally from the front beneath the cockpit window, with access panels on the sides for repairs to the module.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

I like the general shape, but IMO, it needs to be thicker.
How much so? I think it's already thicker than the plate on the extended TIE fighter, so I'm unsure what you're looking for.
crmcneill wrote:
Also, you need to include the ion drives in there somewhere.
Yeah. Just a detail I haven't gotten around to yet. I wanna get the hyperdrive finished before I start building the ion engine exhausts, just in case the hyperdrive eats the place I was building the sublight drive.
crmcneill wrote:


Quote:
I'm having trouble affixing landing gear to the wing pylons in a mechanically reasonable, but non-clunky-looking way. What would you say to landing gear that folds down from the wings, or extends from the ball?

The wings are a possibility, but there isn't typically a lot of room left over in the ball. Ideally, I'd prefer that they be mounted on the wings; I'm picturing a strut that telescopes vertically through the wing roots with landing gear feet that fold out to horizontal.
The wing roots are awfully thin and cluttered for telescoping gear. I could build something telescoping which sticks out on the top of the pylon, or runs parallel afore or behind the strut os in some other way noticeably changes the head-on profile of the fighter, but I think the most pleasant looking would be a spatula-like skid which could fold down from the inner wing surface aft of the wing pylon.
crmcneill wrote:
As far as the modular mission package, if I'm basing the design on the TIE from the Cross-Sections book, the lowest section of the TIE ball is where the fuel tanks are, with the MMP above the fuel tank. The easiest way to mount it would be a tray that slides in and out horizontally from the front beneath the cockpit window, with access panels on the sides for repairs to the module.
Can do.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote:
I think the most pleasant looking would be a spatula-like skid which could fold down from the inner wing surface aft of the wing pylon.


Something like this, for example.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
crmcneill wrote:

I like the general shape, but IMO, it needs to be thicker.
How much so? I think it's already thicker than the plate on the extended TIE fighter, so I'm unsure what you're looking for.

What you have is more like a fin than a module. I like the basic shape; I just think it needs to be thicker (vertically) so that it looks less like a fin and more like a module. Part of the original critique was that there was insufficient room inside the TIE to mount a hyperdrive, so I need the rear module to be of sufficient internal volume that I can point to it and realistically say that there is a hyperdrive in there.

Quote:
Just a detail I haven't gotten around to yet. I wanna get the hyperdrive finished before I start building the ion engine exhausts, just in case the hyperdrive eats the place I was building the sublight drive.

Gotcha

Quote:
The wing roots are awfully thin and cluttered for telescoping gear. I could build something telescoping which sticks out on the top of the pylon, or runs parallel afore or behind the strut os in some other way noticeably changes the head-on profile of the fighter, but I think the most pleasant looking would be a spatula-like skid which could fold down from the inner wing surface aft of the wing pylon.

I'm not liking the spatula effect; I'd prefer something that offers more ground clearance for the wings. I'm okay with making the wing roots more robust to accommodate telescoping landing gear, but if you have other ideas, I am open to suggestions. Maybe a variation on your spatula idea that mounts landing struts on the outer edge of the lower wing hinge that stows vertically and flush against the wing root panel, then rotates inward 180 degrees (or more) to extend for landing? I'm picturing two on each wing: one forward and one rear.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Part of the original critique was that there was insufficient room inside the TIE to mount a hyperdrive, so I need the rear module to be of sufficient internal volume that I can point to it and realistically say that there is a hyperdrive in there.
I extended the ventral housing back to match the length and shape of the planar hyperdrive array. I think it's the largest hyperdrive exhibited on any alliance fighter now, and that it dwarfs the J-type 327 Nubian hyperdrive from Episode I. Is this more what you were thinking?
crmcneill wrote:
Maybe a variation on your spatula idea that mounts landing struts on the outer edge of the lower wing hinge that stows vertically and flush against the wing root panel, then rotates inward 180 degrees (or more) to extend for landing?
Can you re-describe this? I'm having trouble picturing what you're saying without landing gear that intersects the wing when deployed.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
I extended the ventral housing back to match the length and shape of the planar hyperdrive array. I think it's the largest hyperdrive exhibited on any alliance fighter now, and that it dwarfs the J-type 327 Nubian hyperdrive from Episode I. Is

That looks good. Were you still planning on filling in the hollows of the rear cone?

Quote:
Can you re-describe this? I'm having trouble picturing what you're saying without landing gear that intersects the wing when deployed.

Okay...

First, I have no problem with the existing wing-roots being bulked-up to make room for a vertical housing for the landing gear. The gear would retract upward into the housing for flight, then extend down for landing, with the landing pads themselves folding up to vertical for storage and down to horizontal for landing.

However, if that is not a workable option for you, what I suggest is that, just as the lower wing segments fold out 90 degrees to land, the landing struts swing in 180 degrees (or evenly slightly further) to extend for landing. They would be mounted on the same hinge, but would fold up flush (or close to it) against the inside of the wing, with one leg in front of the wing root and the other behind.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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