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Back Story for Mon Cal Cruisers
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:17 pm    Post subject: Back Story for Mon Cal Cruisers Reply with quote

I'm currently working on a stat write-up for the Home One-Type Mon Cal cruisers. While some sources try to say that the Home One is a basic MC80 type cruiser, film evidence indicates that it is demonstrably larger. Per the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, the other Mon Cal ships are approximately 1,200 meters (or near enough), but the Home One is approximately 3,800 meters in length (give or take 100 meters), over 3x longer. As such, IMO, it needs its own stats. Which I am working on.

However, stats need an appropriate back story. A long time ago, I had worked up an idea based on WEG's history of the Mon Cals, in that their initial contact with the galaxy at large did not occur until the Empire. The prequels, however, blew that out of the water by making the Mon Cals fully incorporated into the Republic. IIRC, at least some of the prequel Mon Cals were allied with the Separatists.

My primary question for the backstory is "should the Home One's MC# designator be higher or lower than the MC80?" Specifically, was the Home One originally built before or after the standard Mon Cal cruiser, and why?
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if it would be made before or after, cr. I suppose I'd make it later, perhaps it was somewhat new (rather than really old) at the Battle of Endor. It certainly is much bigger and stronger than the 'standard' ships of the line (though all Mon Cals are unique, I think).

After working for years at/with Decipher, I give a lot of credence to what they established. I know they gave a lot of credit to WEG in the materials they developed, too.

Curiously, they made Home One only 1,200 meters long. They also said it was the "most heavily armed and armored ship in the fleet", FWIW.

What was it in the prequels that established anything at all about Mon Cal cruisers? I don't recall ever seeing (or reading about) any of them.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cr, I'm assuming you've already read the Wookieepedia pages MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser and Home One, right? Of course you have, and I just caught up with you to better educate myself on the EU info available on the subject before taking a shot at your inquiry.

Quote:
Home One to Gold Leader.
Somewhat related to your topic, I just thought I would first state that I think the RotJ novelization made the most sense in describing Home One as a radio call sign for ship in the Battle of Endor. The novelization not stating what the ship's actual name might be is why the ship has just been named Home One by the EU to match its call sign. I think that particular ship should have another name, but the only way this is directly relevant to the OP is to state my opinion that "Home One" should not be a part of the name of the class of ship. I also feel "Headquarters" should also not be part of the name for the class of the ship.

I agree with your premise that this class of ship should have a different "MC" number instead of just being considered an MC80 variant. If it has such a significantly different size and capability then it should have its own classification. According to the EU, the Mon Calamari first gained interstellar capabilities with a form of hyperdrive less advanced than the galactic standard starting at about 4400 BBY.

To me, a much larger size implying older would be in the the case that technological advances allowed them to shrink the space requirements of ship engines and other components. The Mon Cals came into contact with the Republic in 4166 BBY so sometime after that they may have then adapted Republic hyperdrive technology, so engines that would be the most likely candidate for a major size decrease (they could do more for less engine space). If so, then I would think they wouldn't still be using even adapted hulls from ships that old.

So I feel larger would most likely be associated with newer. Larger ships require more resources to build, and to my knowledge the Mon Cals were never portrayed as having largely depleted their resources. Also there are many other examples of capital ships developing from smaller to larger. The fact that this class of ship is considered a variant of the MC80 also seems to indicate that the MC80 came first. The fact that there are only a few ships of this larger class would also imply newer, and the Alliance would most likely want the latest and greatest for the flagship of the Rebel fleet. And finally, a larger number just intuitively implies a larger size.

For these reasons, I feel that this class of ship is newer and the class designation should have a higher number that 80.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a problem with giving Home One a different ship model than the MC80. How about calling it "MC100"? Since they have an MC90 in Dark Empire which seems to be an upgrade from the old MC80s. As far as Wookieepedia is concerned, there is no MC100 already, and the Mon Cals seem to use even 10s for number designations, otherwise I'd suggest MC85.

Edit:
I had a thought after hitting submit, you could call it a Super 80, to denote that it's a bigger version of the MC80 design. If you were so inclined to keep it close to the flawed existing designation, while still changing it to its own class.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
I don't know if it would be made before or after, cr. I suppose I'd make it later, perhaps it was somewhat new (rather than really old) at the Battle of Endor. It certainly is much bigger and stronger than the 'standard' ships of the line (though all Mon Cals are unique, I think).

After working for years at/with Decipher, I give a lot of credence to what they established. I know they gave a lot of credit to WEG in the materials they developed, too.

Curiously, they made Home One only 1,200 meters long. They also said it was the "most heavily armed and armored ship in the fleet", FWIW.

When it comes to precise dimensions of ships in the SWU based on film evidence, I feel that the Star Wars Technical Commentaries is the most reliable source. In this case, their conclusion is that the Home One is roughly 3700-3900 meters in length (you can scroll up to see their reasoning and calculations).

There is even evidence to suggest a third type of MC cruiser at Endor (model evidence shows an estimated length of ~1,500 meters for the Liberty-Class), which might be a basis for the enlarged MC80b type.

Quote:
What was it in the prequels that established anything at all about Mon Cal cruisers? I don't recall ever seeing (or reading about) any of them.

A key piece of background for the Mon Cals in the pre-prequel official material was that the Mon Cals had their first contact with the Empire, not the Republic (i.e. <20BBY). The prequels, however, turned that on its head by having the Mon Cals be long time members of the Republic, with the Quarren being involved with the Separatists (see the Free Dac Volunteers Engineering Corps).

This, in turn, changes the backstory on the cruisers, in that, previously, they would have been developed without external influence. My previous write-up posited that Mon Cal hyperdrive tech was sufficiently behind the curve that large ships were a necessity, as Whill mentioned. However, with the prequels changing the back story of the Mon Cals, that premise gets thrown out the window, since long-time members of the galactic community would have access to modern technology.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
cr, I'm assuming you've already read the Wookieepedia pages MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser and Home One, right? Of course you have, and I just caught up with you to better educate myself on the EU info available on the subject before taking a shot at your inquiry.

Yes, I have read them. My conclusion was that the articles (like so much else on Wookieepedia) was less of an attempt to provide accurate information that it was as a dumping ground for all available information, with little or no effort made to distinguish accurate from inaccurate, which is why I defaulted to the conclusions of the SWTC.

Quote:
Quote:
Home One to Gold Leader.
Somewhat related to your topic, I just thought I would first state that I think the RotJ novelization made the most sense in describing Home One as a radio call sign for ship in the Battle of Endor. The novelization not stating what the ship's actual name might be is why the ship has just been named Home One by the EU to match its call sign. I think that particular ship should have another name, but the only way this is directly relevant to the OP is to state my opinion that "Home One" should not be a part of the name of the class of ship. I also feel "Headquarters" should also not be part of the name for the class of the ship.

I tend to agree. Unfortunately, the name Home One has been pretty well established in the official material, particularly the X-Wing novels. IIRC, the point was made on the SWTC that Home One was somewhat consistent with the Mon Cal's nomenclature preference of naming ships after cities on their homeworld. My current opinion is that I don't particularly care about the name one way or the other, so lacking official evidence requiring a change, I will probably just stick with Home One simply for the sake of continuity. YMMV.

Quote:
For these reasons, I feel that this class of ship is newer and the class designation should have a higher number that 80.

I tend to agree. Based on the pre-prequel back story, my original theory was that the excessively slow speeds of the Mon Cal's home-grown hyperdrives dictated that the ships would spend extensive time in deep space, requiring massive internal volume for consumables, as well as internal living spaces to keep the crew sane over long voyages.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I don't see a problem with giving Home One a different ship model than the MC80. How about calling it "MC100"? Since they have an MC90 in Dark Empire which seems to be an upgrade from the old MC80s. As far as Wookieepedia is concerned, there is no MC100 already, and the Mon Cals seem to use even 10s for number designations, otherwise I'd suggest MC85.

Edit:
I had a thought after hitting submit, you could call it a Super 80, to denote that it's a bigger version of the MC80 design. If you were so inclined to keep it close to the flawed existing designation, while still changing it to its own class.

The only problem I have with an MC100 is that there is an MC90 in the Dark Empire series, which is supposed to be just entering service then (7 years after Endor). The Home One would need to have a lower number than that. I'm considering co-opting the MC85 Command Cruiser from the Star Wars Exodus.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the the MC90 form Dark Empire, MC85 makes sense from a completely numerical-chronological standpoint.

But the MC90s are back to the same general size as the MC80s, so you could still have a three-digit (hundreds) number for these command ships to represent the completely larger scale of the ship, then they go back to 90 to represent the next level of development of the 1200-ish meter scale.

But if the MC number must only represent chronological order for you, then MC85 is the obvious choice. I don't really care about the number, so for my game I'll probably just go with what you choose. Smile

The final ship stats of you design are going to be in the RAW system, not using any custom scale system or anything, right?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Considering the the MC90 form Dark Empire, MC85 makes sense from a completely numerical-chronological standpoint.

But the MC90s are back to the same general size as the MC80s, so you could still have a three-digit (hundreds) number for these command ships to represent the completely larger scale of the ship, then they go back to 90 to represent the next level of development of the 1200-ish meter scale.

But if the MC number must only represent chronological order for you, then MC85 is the obvious choice. I don't really care about the number, so for my game I'll probably just go with what you choose. Smile

I do feel that it represents a chronological progression, much like how modern fighter craft designation numbers scale up by date of production. For instance, the Russian Su-25 is designed as a ground attack fighter, while the Su-27 is designed as an air superiority platform. The higher number does not indicate an improvement on the capabilities of lower numbered craft; it just indicates the order in which it was developed.

Quote:
The final ship stats of you design are going to be in the RAW system, not using any custom scale system or anything are they?

It will be in standard scale.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the stats. Still working on the capsule.

HOME ONE
Craft: Mon Calamari MC85 Star Dreadnaught
Type: Star Dreadnaught
Scale: Capital Ship
Length: 3,800 meters
Skill: Capital Ship Piloting: MC85
Crew: 12,402 (3,460 @ +10) & 497 Gunners
Crew Skill:
Astrogation 3D+2*
Capital Ship Piloting 5D+2*
Capital Ship Gunnery 5D*
Capital Ship Shields 5D*
Sensors 4D*
*The ship is configured to provide Mon Calamari with their +1D bonus for being in moist environments. The crew skill levels do not reflect these bonuses.
Passengers: 4,500
Cargo Capacity: 50,000 metric tons
Consumables: 3 years
Cost: Not Available For Sale
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup x10
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 6
Hull: 8D+2
Shields: 4D / 6D (The ship has 6D of backup shields. When a die of shield is lost, if the shields operators can make an Easy CS shields total, one of the backup die codes of shields can be brought up to increase the shield back to 4D).
Sensors:
Passive 50/1D
Scan: 100/3D
Search: 200/4D
Focus: 6/5D
Weapons:
29 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 9 front, 10 left, 10 right
Crew: 3 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6km-30km/70km/150km
Damage: 8D
108 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 18 front, 36 left, 36 right, 18 rear
Crew: 2 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6km-30km/70km/150km
Damage: 5D
36 Ion Cannon Batteries
Fire Arc: 6 front, 12 left, 12 right, 6 rear
Crew: 4 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 2km-20km/50km/100km
Damage: 3D
10 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 6 front, 2 left, 2 right
Crew: 5 each
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D+2
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2km-10km/30km/60km
Damage: 4D
Small Craft Complement: 10 starfighter squadrons, plus various support craft.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the surface, 29 turbolaser batteries seems a rather strange number. However, multiple sources cite the ship as having 29 turbolaser batteries and 36 ion cannon batteries. I decided to change the 29 turbolaser batteries to heavy turbolaser batteries as the ship's primary armament, with more numerous standard turbolaser batteries as a secondary armament.

Also, I considered adding anti-starfighter laser cannon to the MC85 (in keeping with my own version of the stats). If you agree, then include the following:

60 Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: 10 front, 20 left, 20 right, 10 rear
Crew: 1 each
SkillStarship Gunnery (use Capital Ship Gunnery)
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range : 2km-3km/24km/50km
Damage: 4D

Note: Increase ship's Gunners complement to 557.
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i can recall the mc80s were originally liners, but very durable ones, converted to warships, i'd say the same for these, as the mon cals, really did not build purpose built warships till really after after the rebelion.
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hongxiquan
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the idea that you can convert a liner into a decent warship is pretty much insane.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panzerjedi wrote:
if i can recall the mc80s were originally liners, but very durable ones, converted to warships, i'd say the same for these, as the mon cals, really did not build purpose built warships till really after after the rebelion.

Yes. I read in Wookieepedia that the MC90 from Dark Empire was the first non-retrofitted capital ship that was originally designed as a warship.

crmcneill wrote:
Here are the stats. Still working on the capsule.

HOME ONE
Craft: Mon Calamari MC85 Star Dreadnaught
Type: Star Dreadnaught
Scale: Capital Ship
Length: 3,800 meters
...

Thank you, but I do have a question. This is not just a general stat block for this class of ship? These are your stats for Home One specifically? Is that because you see that each of the few "MC85s" would be significantly different that each other due to each being unique? Do you view the RAW stats for MC80s to just be a guideline but really each of those ships is also unique so also have different stats? Just wondering.
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hongxiquan wrote:
the idea that you can convert a liner into a decent warship is pretty much insane.


you must remember the mon cals had a certain "paranoia" about pirates hence there liners were more durable in specs then most, in fact very well armored...... more then needed for the role..... the originals, as fited originally, like kuari princess, were lightly armed though.
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