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Back Story for Mon Cal Cruisers
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hongxiquan
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panzerjedi wrote:
hongxiquan wrote:
the idea that you can convert a liner into a decent warship is pretty much insane.


you must remember the mon cals had a certain "paranoia" about pirates hence there liners were more durable in specs then most, in fact very well armored...... more then needed for the role..... the originals, as fited originally, like kuari princess, were lightly armed though.



No, then you do what you do in real life and build them super fast. Armor doesn't do much for you in a fight if you have no guns.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hongxiquan wrote:
the idea that you can convert a liner into a decent warship is pretty much insane.

There are two presuppositions here; first, that starliners in the the SWU are equally as fragile (relatively speaking) as modern ocean liners would be when compared to modern naval vessels; second, that the technology required to upgrade starliners to military warships is equally as limited as modern tech. Neither is conclusively known to be true in the SWU.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
This is not just a general stat block for this class of ship? These are your stats for Home One specifically? Is that because you see that each of the few "MC85s" would be significantly different that each other due to each being unique? Do you view the RAW stats for MC80s to just be a guideline but really each of those ships is also unique so also have different stats? Just wondering.

As with all homebrew stats, this one is subject to change as is appropriate. Since Home One is the only canon ship of this type, I chose to limit the stats to that one in particular. Future discussion may result in this ship being a limited run class, with the "Home One" designator being moved to the capsule to identify a single ship of the MC85 class. A truly realistic system might require unique stats for individual ships (in keeping with the MC80 backstory of each ship being unique), but for the purposes of the RPG, I think two or three separate stats are appropriate (one for the basic Mon Cal cruiser, one for the Home One-type, and possibly a third, enlarged MC80 type, as some of the model dimensions in the SWTC analysis indicate a length of ~1,500 meters)

In essence, I'm using the input of the forum to develop a back story for the ships that is as accurate as possible, rather than trying to invent my own and defend it.
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i say similar background to the 80 series, but a little newer with less numbers manufactured before the imperial occupation.

As a side note while mon cal liners were lightly armed by military standards mind you, the often could defend from typhical pirate craft...... in most encounters.. and were armed enough to...... most pirates run corvetes, and lighter vesels, sometimes frigates, rarely, rarely, cruiser sized. Agaist a typhically armed pirate group, unless it was a huge group, they were welll defended and hard to crack. Think more age of sail when every vesel had artillery mounted, rather the the curent era. In SW even merchantmen face the reality that they must defend the selves in space, something even the galactic empire does aknowledge, even if it don't like to.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true. Even standard civilian liners were armed with defensive weaponry (see the Lady of Mindor, from the Han Solo trilogy, as well as the Star Wars Sourcebook).
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

another possibitly is your MC-85 (Tenatively), rather then luxury craft may of beedn originally designed with something like setting up large scale colonies and and such, both for the mon cals, and as a service to other groups they'd market such services to (as the mon cals seemed to usually have a benevolent veiw as a group)..... in that case it may explain it's larger size, and heavy arms/armor (as originally fiited), both to mass transport a colony, and protect its cargo on the long journey, as well as the high quality sensors and hanger bays.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
DougRed4 wrote:
What was it in the prequels that established anything at all about Mon Cal cruisers? I don't recall ever seeing (or reading about) any of them.

A key piece of background for the Mon Cals in the pre-prequel official material was that the Mon Cals had their first contact with the Empire, not the Republic (i.e. <20BBY). The prequels, however, turned that on its head by having the Mon Cals be long time members of the Republic, with the Quarren being involved with the Separatists (see the Free Dac Volunteers Engineering Corps).

This, in turn, changes the backstory on the cruisers, in that, previously, they would have been developed without external influence. My previous write-up posited that Mon Cal hyperdrive tech was sufficiently behind the curve that large ships were a necessity, as Whill mentioned. However, with the prequels changing the back story of the Mon Cals, that premise gets thrown out the window, since long-time members of the galactic community would have access to modern technology.


I think it's important for all of us to remember that - as far as anything "official" or "canon" goes - it's all somewhat of a state of flux, as we're all of us sort of waiting to see what the Story Group 'blesses' going forward. In the meantime, we should probably view most of the stuff in the EU as crmcneill does Wookieepedia (in other words, pick and choose what we want to use and like or dislike, realizing that there may be contradictions out there and things might change or be altered).

As far as anything that is absolutely canon (in other words, stuff from any of the "official sources", like have been seen on screen), the only thing I'm aware of is some background shots (at best) of Quarrens and Mon Cals in the prequels. Decipher made some cards for both species, but I don't personally recall ever seeing any of them in the films (and I only remember Quarrens in any of the prequel stuff).

Curiously enough, I've been reading up about Mon Calamari, as it's the next planet my group is going to visit in our campaign. My main source is WotC's "Geonosis and the Outer Rim" (though, to be fair, it was published in 2004, a year before Revenge of the Sith). It claims that the Republic had contact with the world, but that the Quarrens were very suspicious of outsiders, and the Mon Cals only sent delegates to Coruscant (but only in the last few decades of the Republic). They wrote that "Mon Calamari and its colonies were visited infrequently, resisting entreaties to formally join the Republic". They then go on to say that Dooku threatened the world, and some joined the Separatists.

Bottom line is that the vast majority of stuff found in any of the literature or on the web is subject to change going forward. So you can probably make your "best guess" and not worry too much about it contradicting anything, as we really don't know how Mon Calamari will be used going forward (see speculation about how the watery world the X-wings are flying over might be Mon Cal in the new trailer).
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True. I use what iI like and not worry too much.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, the SWTC posits three separate lengths for Mon Cal Cruisers, based on a variety of factors. Two different lengths are proposed for the Liberty Class (which is the basis of the MC80): 1,500 and 1,200, with the 1,200 meter length based on common model scaling. Their specific statement is that they "cannot rule out the 1,200 meter length". My thinking is this: three different types of Mon Cal Cruiser; the MC85 Star Dreadnought (3,800 meters), the MC80 Star Cruiser (1,200 meters) and the MC80b Star Cruiser (1,500 meters). The MC80b would be a stretched version of the MC80a, with similar speed but greater armor, armament and transport capacity, and will tie in with the X-Wing series' presumption that the MC80b Mon Remonda (Han Solo's flagship in the Wraith Squadron trilogy) was larger than standard MC80 cruisers.

The background for all three cruisers would be similar, in that they are converted liners, but perhaps with an inclusion that, as the galaxy approached and descended into the Clone Wars, Mon Cal ship designers purposely overbuilt their ships to better accept potential conversion from civilian passenger vessels into warships. Their plans bore fruit when the Empire occupied Mon Calamari at some point between Episodes III and IV, at which point the back story would revert to the version described in the WEG books.

I'm thinking there should be a handful of MC85 star dreadnoughts (one of which is Home One), several dozen MC80b star cruisers, and an unknown number of standard MC80a star cruisers, with the MC80b's serving as flagships of various units (as seen in various forms in the official material).
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that does seem logical.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicely done, crmc!

I've got a question about the shipyards in general (as my group will soon be arriving there), but in the interest of not sidetracking this thread, I'll just point folks that are able to help in that direction.
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aegisflashfire
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hongxiquan wrote:
the idea that you can convert a liner into a decent warship is pretty much insane.

Not really true. There is a long real-world tradition of converting civilian ships into warships. The first aircraft carrier in the world, the USS Langley was a converted collier ship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Langley_%28CV-1%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pulo_Aura
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Jervis_Bay


The Mon Cal's conversion ships are indicated to be more fragile and under-gunned compared to their Imperial counterparts, but they are still effective warships; they're just not on par with a star destroyer. Still, in the SW universe, you can throw shields on a ship with and make it awfully robust in a way you can't do in the real world by slapping armor on liner.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Whill wrote:
This is not just a general stat block for this class of ship? These are your stats for Home One specifically? Is that because you see that each of the few "MC85s" would be significantly different that each other due to each being unique? Do you view the RAW stats for MC80s to just be a guideline but really each of those ships is also unique so also have different stats? Just wondering.

As with all homebrew stats, this one is subject to change as is appropriate. Since Home One is the only canon ship of this type, I chose to limit the stats to that one in particular. Future discussion may result in this ship being a limited run class, with the "Home One" designator being moved to the capsule to identify a single ship of the MC85 class. A truly realistic system might require unique stats for individual ships (in keeping with the MC80 backstory of each ship being unique), but for the purposes of the RPG, I think two or three separate stats are appropriate (one for the basic Mon Cal cruiser, one for the Home One-type, and possibly a third, enlarged MC80 type, as some of the model dimensions in the SWTC analysis indicate a length of ~1,500 meters)

What do you mean, "Home One is the only canon ship of this type"? Which canon are you referring to? Film canon? That may be true (I'd probably trust the SWTC analysis of film footage for that). Story group canon? If there was only one in the films, that's possibly still true unless there were some more determined very recently in a story group canon publication. EU canon? Definitely not true. There were 7 known ships of this class, and 3 of them were named (the other two were the Independence and the Defiance).
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Last edited by Whill on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
What do you mean, "Home One is the only canon ship of this type"? Which canon are you referring to? Film canon?

Correct. My concept of the canon was established back on the old AOL SW-RPG mailing list, where the "canon" consisted of the films, novels and the radio dramas, in that order. Specifically, in the event of a conflict, the films overruled the novels, which overruled the radio dramas, which overruled everything else. Everything else (read: the entire EU) was considered merely "official". So while I am more than willing to accept the "official" presence of multiple ships of the same class as Home One, Home One was the only ship of its class to appear in the films, thereby being the only "canon" ship of its class.


Quote:
There were 7 known ships of this class, and 3 of them were named (the other two were the Independence and the Defiance).

So should that be a hard ceiling for the number of ships in class? Or should there be more?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I'm thinking there should be a handful of MC85 star dreadnoughts (one of which is Home One)
crmcneill wrote:
Whill wrote:
EU canon? ...There were 7 known ships of this class, and 3 of them were named (the other two were the Independence and the Defiance).

So should that be a hard ceiling for the number of ships in class? Or should there be more?

A handful sounds right to me. Maybe in the entire history of the class there could be 7 ships total, but I wouldn't think there would be more than 3 in existence at the time of RotJ. I only brought up the EU because you said "canon" without further defining it. I'm not saying you have to state any total number of ships of the class in your capsule for Home One.

Since you are referring to film canon, then the Alliance Fleet's command ship with the radio call sign of "Home One" in the Battle of Endor was never named in film canon, which I mentioned earlier. It's confusing when you seem to be adhering to EU canon on one hand and film canon on the other. I'm not saying you have to be all one or the other - I'm just confused by your own criteria.

crmcneill wrote:
I'm using the input of the forum to develop a back story for the ships

I love the SWTC, and you know I'm not married to the EU. I feel that "Home One" is a good battle radio call sign but a stupid name for a ship, and that ship name is not a part of film canon for the one ship that is shown in film canon. If you made the stats for the MC85 class of ship and not the one specific film canon ship, then it wouldn't matter what that canon ship was named. That's my input. Cool
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Last edited by Whill on Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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