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Back Story for Mon Cal Cruisers
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Since you are referring to film canon, then the Alliance Fleet's command ship with the radio call sign of "Home One" in the Battle of Endor was never named in film canon, which I mentioned earlier. It's confusing when you seem to be adhering to EU canon on one hand and film canon on the other. I'm not saying you have to be all one or the other - I'm just confused by your own criteria.

This is splitting hairs, but while the term Home One is likely a radio callsign, it is not explicitly identified as such. Subsequently, EU material has officially identified the ship as Home One. In my previous post, I outlined my understanding of canon and its hierarchy. Within that hierarchy, the general rule of thumb is that if official material at a lower level does not contradict higher level official material, then it is accurate. In this case, since the X-Wing novels establish the name of this cruiser as Home One, and that designator is not explicitly contradicted by canon or higher level official material, the ship's canon name is Home One. Or more accurately, there is no explicit reason in the canon for it not to be. YMMV.

My personal position is that I don't mind whether it is called the Home One or not. There are many things in the SWU to which I object, but disagreements on Mon Calamari starship nomenclature is not one that gets me riled up. If you wish to identify the ship by some other name, far be it from me to stand in your way.

Quote:
If you made the stats for the MC85 class of ship and not the one specific film canon ship, then it wouldn't matter what that canon ship was named. That's my input. Cool

That's the direction I'm leaning.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Since Home One is the only canon ship of this type, I chose to limit the stats to that one in particular

crmcneill wrote:
This is splitting hairs... Within that hierarchy, the general rule of thumb is that if official material at a lower level does not contradict higher level official material, then it is accurate.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to split hairs. I was genuinely confused, but now I see it seems to just be a matter of terminology. You are using the term "canon" to refer to one specific kind of canon in your old school hierarchy. I understood the premise of your hierarchy, and by your hierarchy there would "officially" be 7 in existence with 3 of those ships "officially" named (but only 1 of the ships is actually "canon"). Got it.

crmcneill wrote:
Quote:
If you made the stats for the MC85 class of ship and not the one specific film canon ship, then it wouldn't matter what that canon ship was named. That's my input. Cool

That's the direction I'm leaning.

ok
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't trying to split hairs.

My apologies; my point was that I was splitting hairs, not you. That sort of debate as to what actually occurred in the event of a source conflict was taken very seriously by many over at the AOL SW-RPG list, to the point that there was a degree of culture shock when I first started here on the Pit.

Quote:
by your hierarchy there would "officially" be 7 in existence with 3 of those ships "officially" named (but only 1 of the ships is actually "canon"). Got it.


Correct. A couple more questions...

1). Any objections to (or input on) rewriting the stats for the MC80b Cruiser to better fit a larger, more capable MC80a? The version shown in Cracken's Threat Dossier is sorely lacking.

2). Any problems with the stats on the MC85 before I move on?
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not at alll. Very Happy
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't trying to split hairs.

My apologies; my point was that I was splitting hairs, not you. That sort of debate as to what actually occurred in the event of a source conflict was taken very seriously by many over at the AOL SW-RPG list, to the point that there was a degree of culture shock when I first started here on the Pit.

I remember, but it all makes sense now. Yeah, it seems the AOL group held on to the old way for a long time. That was a few continuity models ago now. Especially in light of the latest version established earlier this year, I think it would behoove all of us to be specific when referring to canon. I think "Film canon", "EU canon" or "Legends canon", and "new canon" or "Story Group canon" should suffice in references.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Quote:
by your hierarchy there would "officially" be 7 in existence with 3 of those ships "officially" named (but only 1 of the ships is actually "canon"). Got it.

Correct. A couple more questions...

1). Any objections to (or input on) rewriting the stats for the MC80b Cruiser to better fit a larger, more capable MC80a? The version shown in Cracken's Threat Dossier is sorely lacking.

2). Any problems with the stats on the MC85 before I move on?

I don't think anyone has any issues so far. Please continue with all the ships you're doing! I'm love these Calamarian ships being discussed and fleshed out.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'll be putting some work in on stats for the MC80b Cruiser this afternoon, using the 1,500 meter length and making it a bigger, heavier version of the MC80a. The film evidence for making this ship longer than the other is a little shaky, but is more consistent, as various official depictions of the MC80b show a wingless design.

With regard to the back story, the basic outline I'm considering is that:
1. The Mon Cal were building a fleet of ships that, while officially identified as passenger liners or for extended survey missions into the Unknown Regions, were sufficiently overbuilt that they could easily be converted from liners into effective warships.
2. The Empire, when it became aware of this, used it as evidence to support its invasion and occupation of Dac, but were unprepared for how ferociously the Mon Cal would oppose their occupation, at which point, the story line reverts to that found in the WEG books.
3. Also, since the Star Wars Sourcebook indicates that passenger liners were allowed to mount defensive weaponry, the MC-series cruisers would have had some basic defensive armament to stand off pirates, so the conversion to warship would involve adding weapons in addition to the ones already there.

Thoughts?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Okay, I'll be putting some work in on stats for the MC80b Cruiser this afternoon, using the 1,500 meter length and making it a bigger, heavier version of the MC80a. The film evidence for making this ship longer than the other is a little shaky, but is more consistent, as various official depictions of the MC80b show a wingless design...

Thoughts?

I'm confused. What is the difference between an MC80 and an MC80a? (And what is the classification of the passenger liners before conversion? We have stats for those somewhere, right? Riders of the Maelstrom?) Could you maybe do a brief recap of each ship to differentiate them from each other before moving forward? Please add any to the list that need to be added.

MC80 -
MC80a -
MC80b -
MC85 -
MC90 -

crmcneill wrote:
With regard to the back story, the basic outline I'm considering is that:
1. The Mon Cal were building a fleet of ships that, while officially identified as passenger liners or for extended survey missions into the Unknown Regions, were sufficiently overbuilt that they could easily be converted from liners into effective warships.
2. The Empire, when it became aware of this, used it as evidence to support its invasion and occupation of Dac, but were unprepared for how ferociously the Mon Cal would oppose their occupation, at which point, the story line reverts to that found in the WEG books.
3. Also, since the Star Wars Sourcebook indicates that passenger liners were allowed to mount defensive weaponry, the MC-series cruisers would have had some basic defensive armament to stand off pirates, so the conversion to warship would involve adding weapons in addition to the ones already there.

1. I agree with the second part, but I don't think that passenger liners would be interchangeable as exploration vessels in the updated background. We know they had passenger liners. It is reasonable that they would have some exploration vessels. Exploration vessels wouldn't have the same passenger capacity as exploration vessels. (Colony ships might be very similar to passenger liners, but colony ships would only be used after they located and surveyed a world, and it was deemed suitable for colonization.) Exploration vessels would have more sensors and combat abilities than passenger liners (even well-defended ones). I also think it is reasonable that Calamari Space would have a small number of combat vessels before the Empire came, but perhaps that could be a dual designation with the exploration vessels (like Star Trek's Starfleet). That would seem to suit a peaceful species that had to patrol and protect an entire region of space. Exploration vessels being virtually interchangeable with passenger liners made more sense in WEG's original background in which the Cals have a single planet and they sent out exploration vessels in all directions, sold a bunch of their ships to be hardy passenger liners to the point of coming under greater attention to the Empire who then decided to subjugate them.

2. A couple things. In the updated background, the Calamarians set out from Dac to explore their surrounding space over 4000 years before the films, and began colonizing it. They encountered the Republic and had peaceful relations with them, with Calamari Space eventually being officially designated as an Allied Region of the Republic but never joining the Republic. In this updated background, I think the significant numbers of Mon Cal passenger liners available to convert comes from the liners being the most significant aspect of their participation in galactic economy (their greatest export). So I don't think the passenger liners being overbuilt would be the primary reason or most important public justification of the Empire's invasion. The primary reason would be to use Calamari manufacturing capabilities for the Imperial war machine, and the most likely public justification would be the two Calamari honorary senators signing the Petition of the 2000 (calling for Palpatine to relinquish his executive powers at the end of the Clone War). At the start of the Empire, all the senators who signed were given a chance to officially withdraw their signatures, and Senators Organa and Mothma did so. The ones who stuck to their principles and refused to withdraw were hunted down and killed as traitors to the Empire. It is likely the honorary Calamari senators and Calamari Space were left alone for so many years after RotS because Calamari Space was so remote and not actually a part of the Empire. From the point of subjugation, the storyline still wouldn't be exactly as it was in WEG, but similar. And your one sentence seems to glaze over that the Calamari were no match for the Empire at first and were enslaved for several years before the Calamari finally rose up overthrew their oppressors.

3. That works for me.
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Theodrim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, for what it's worth, in the SWD6 game I'm currently running (which involved the PC's participating in the Liberation of Dac)...

A foreward, I am deviating from canon and taking great liberties filling in "gaps" of information in the canon and EU. Great fun, let me tell you.

The Home One-type cruiser is genuinely as big as depicted in the films -- the full 2.6Km. It's that large because it was a purpose-built long-range, long-duration survey cruiser in the vein of Outbound Flight. The Independence was its sister ship, but as of the Liberation of Dac only its spaceframe had been constructed while Home One was nearly complete.

During the Liberation of Dac, Home One's weapons systems hadn't been fully installed, so the Mon Cals had to take out a Star Destroyer by ramming and boarding it, sabotaging its inertial dampening system and navigational deflectors, and with a number of frigates and freighters knocking out its repulsors and thrusters before forcefully de-orbiting it to let it burn up in re-entry. Home One took catastrophic damage in the engagement, and had to go back to the shipyards for an overhaul of almost everything but its spaceframe.

Meanwhile...when the Mon Cals liberated Minntoine, they found the Separatist cache, research station, and a number of old Quarren separatist researchers there. There they found a massive amount of miniaturization, modular shipbuilding, and systems automation tech that pushed their shipbuilding capabilities through the roof...which they promptly put to use building the new MC-80 type. Home One and Independence are older ships, on the other hand, and even the Mon Cals can only retrofit a ship so much.

I found that a tidy and interesting way to explain:

1. How the Mon Cals went from being a slave race with a devastated system to being able to churn out entire fleets in months' time,

2. How the MC-80's are, apart from the somewhat flimsy "Mon Cal shipbuilding is just better", just so good,

3. The size discrepancy between Home One, Independence, and the rest of the MC-80 type despite having identical stats.

4. How the Home One doesn't re-appear until 3ABY despite being the first ship of its type,

not to mention 5. How the Mon Cals can purpose-build ships of the same type to fit wildly varying mission profiles, and quickly, without compromising the canonical care and love they put into building their ships.

My PC's LOVE the MC-40 variants (namely flak and missile frigates) I wrote up, also.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Theodrin. Your campaign sounds cool! I'm planning a campaign that starts with starts with the subjugation of Dac and ends with it's freedom, but the bulk of the campaign takes place in a nearby region of space of my own device.

Thanks for chiming in, and welcome to the Pit!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm confused. What is the difference between an MC80 and an MC80a? (And what is the classification of the passenger liners before conversion? We have stats for those somewhere, right? Riders of the Maelstrom?) Could you maybe do a brief recap of each ship to differentiate them from each other before moving forward? Please add any to the list that need to be added.


MC80 / MC80a - Essentially the same class. I just used the -a designator to differentiate between the MC80a and MC80b types. The -a is the basic Mon Cal cruiser as stated in the various WEG sourcebooks.

MC80b - In The Courtship of Princess Leia, the Mon Remonda was supposed to be an enhanced version of the basic MC80, but the X-Wing series took it a little further and made Mon Remonda into a larger, more powerful version. Since film evidence supports multiple differing lengths and at least three different types of Mon Cal cruisers, and various other EU sources (such as the X-Wing games) include Mon Cal cruisers that are (IIRC) larger than standard Mon Cal cruisers, yet smaller than the Home One type, I'm essentially rolling that hodge-podge of details into a single ship type that is larger than the MC80, but noticeably smaller than the Home One / MC85

MC85 - The Home One class. Class' official name undetermined, but the X-Wing novels have identified the ship as the Home One on multiple occasions. YMMV

MC90 - As described in the Dark Empire series / sourcebook.

As far as base stats, the closest thing to official is the Mon Cal Evacuation Cruiser, which is a stripped down version. To make a stock liner, I would suggest slashing the passenger capacity to, say, 10-15,000, and keeping ten turbolasers from the official Mon Cal cruiser stats.

Whill wrote:
1. I agree with the second part, but I don't think that passenger liners would be interchangeable as exploration vessels in the updated background. We know they had passenger liners. It is reasonable that they would have some exploration vessels. Exploration vessels wouldn't have the same passenger capacity as exploration vessels. (Colony ships might be very similar to passenger liners, but colony ships would only be used after they located and surveyed a world, and it was deemed suitable for colonization.) Exploration vessels would have more sensors and combat abilities than passenger liners (even well-defended ones). I also think it is reasonable that Calamari Space would have a small number of combat vessels before the Empire came, but perhaps that could be a dual designation with the exploration vessels (like Star Trek's Starfleet). That would seem to suit a peaceful species that had to patrol and protect an entire region of space. Exploration vessels being virtually interchangeable with passenger liners made more sense in WEG's original background in which the Cals have a single planet and they sent out exploration vessels in all directions, sold a bunch of their ships to be hardy passenger liners to the point of coming under greater attention to the Empire who then decided to subjugate them.

That's acceptable. My primary reason for including the concept of an exploration vessel is that, IMO, the ships could potentially be (and were) modified by Mon Cal engineers for a wide variety of different missions

Quote:
2. A couple things. In the updated background, the Calamarians set out from Dac to explore their surrounding space over 4000 years before the films, and began colonizing it. They encountered the Republic and had peaceful relations with them, with Calamari Space eventually being officially designated as an Allied Region of the Republic but never joining the Republic. In this updated background, I think the significant numbers of Mon Cal passenger liners available to convert comes from the liners being the most significant aspect of their participation in galactic economy (their greatest export). So I don't think the passenger liners being overbuilt would be the primary reason or most important public justification of the Empire's invasion. The primary reason would be to use Calamari manufacturing capabilities for the Imperial war machine, and the most likely public justification would be the two Calamari honorary senators signing the Petition of the 2000 (calling for Palpatine to relinquish his executive powers at the end of the Clone War). At the start of the Empire, all the senators who signed were given a chance to officially withdraw their signatures, and Senators Organa and Mothma did so. The ones who stuck to their principles and refused to withdraw were hunted down and killed as traitors to the Empire. It is likely the honorary Calamari senators and Calamari Space were left alone for so many years after RotS because Calamari Space was so remote and not actually a part of the Empire. From the point of subjugation, the storyline still wouldn't be exactly as it was in WEG, but similar. And your one sentence seems to glaze over that the Calamari were no match for the Empire at first and were enslaved for several years before the Calamari finally rose up overthrew their oppressors.

The details of that were somewhat nebulous in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, but I'm fine with your premise. However, IMO, the degree of detail you have is not really necessary for the capsule of a warship.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I wasn't trying to offer text for ship capsules. I was just trying to explain my position with respect to your #1 and #2 statements. I did agree with #3 unconditionally. Wink


Quote:
With regard to the back story, the basic outline I'm considering is that:
1. The Mon Cal were building a fleet of ships that, while officially identified as passenger liners or for extended survey missions into the Unknown Regions, were sufficiently overbuilt that they could easily be converted from liners into effective warships.
2. The Empire, when it became aware of this, used it as evidence to support its invasion and occupation of Dac, but were unprepared for how ferociously the Mon Cal would oppose their occupation, at which point, the story line reverts to that found in the WEG books.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, welcome Theodrim. From your username, I'm guessing you're also a fan of Tolkien (as am I). Your campaign sounds like fun! Welcome to the Pit!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alrighty then.

I'll admit right off that I haven't read up on the Wookieepedia, or any other source, on this issue. However, I had a thought that keeps recurring, and I figured I'd throw it in, if for no other reason than for the sake of argument.


"Home One" could simply be a designation afforded the flagship of the ENTIRE Rebel Alliance. After all, America has a number of aircraft available to transport the President; be it a 747, a C-130, or a helicopter, whichever aircraft is currently transporting POTUS, THAT PARTICULAR CRAFT is given the call sign "Air Force One." Perhaps we're seeing that same thing here.

I personally like the idea of the Mon Cal ships getting bigger as the technology advances. A bigger ship, with smaller - but more powerful - engines (and, conceivably, other tech, to include weaponry, etc.), would allow room for MORE weapons, more powerful engines, more crew/passenger space, etc. Bottom line, it would allow for a ship to be built that would be truly worthy of being the flagship of the entire Rebel Alliance.

Personally, I would count Home One as a ship built after Strike Force: Shantipole, after Ackbar has successfully delivered the B-Wing to the Rebel Alliance. The Mon Cals have thrown off their oppressors, and have thrown their lot in with the Alliance. They then have not only the resources of their home planet, but also the financial resources they can bring to bear. Sure, from some points of view, the Alliance was an impoverished, rag-tag band of dissidents. But it was more than that; it was a group of individuals, races, species, brought together by the common belief that tyranny was wrong, and could be overthrown. Whenever money was needed, TRULY needed, it was there. Resources were there. And so, the Mon Calamari were able, with the help of the Alliance, to construct one ship that could be used to further the cause of the Rebellion. The Alliance would have access to secret facilities, and would be able to partner in the construction of a new vessel that had not been seen before.

And that COULD, possibly, be the reason you have this vessel that appears nowhere else, has no stats attributed to it, and which cannot be defined or nailed down by any system or argument to date. It's a designation, rather than a class.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:28 am    Post subject: re: "Home One" Reply with quote

I like it. And the flagship designation would also be its battle radio callsign, regardless of the ship's actual name.
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