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What Star Wars novels have you read? Liked?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Mary Sues...

Quote:
So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

God, what a Mary Sue.

I just described Batman.p


"Mary Sue" is generally Batman in a dress. So I tend to dismiss any argument that someone is a Mary Sue. Hell, I saw folks making that argument about Rey, despite us having an array of dangling story hooks about her.

And, something someone pointed out about Rogue One...

Bail Organa sent his daughter to Obi-Wan Kenobi before Scarif. The Tantive IV was being diverted to near Scarif to intercept the plans, yes, but Leia, the daughter of Anakin Skywalker, was one her way to Obi-wan, the last Jedi Bail knew about, hours before Scarif.

Bail, at least, had a plan to put a lightsaber in her hand.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
And, something someone pointed out about Rogue One...

Bail Organa sent his daughter to Obi-Wan Kenobi before Scarif. The Tantive IV was being diverted to near Scarif to intercept the plans, yes, but Leia, the daughter of Anakin Skywalker, was one her way to Obi-wan, the last Jedi Bail knew about, hours before Scarif.

Bail, at least, had a plan to put a lightsaber in her hand.


Was the Tantive IV being "diverted" in the novelization? I'm thinking that I'll have to re-read it because I don't remember anything about the Tantive IV being diverted anywhere. All I remember is the Tantive IV needing repairs while it was in the Profundity's docking bay, so it couldn't have been diverted anywhere. And Captain Antilles was on Yavin 4 with Bail, so that meant the Tantive IV was at Yavin during the Alliance Council meeting. Again, why do people keep saying the Tantive IV was diverted? It was never re-routed anywhere. Not that I saw, anyway. Are people talking about the Tantive IV being put in the Profundity's docking bay as the diversion since the Tantive IV went to Scarif inside the Profundity's docking bay instead of going straight to Tatooine from Yavin?

On another topic, was someone suggesting that Leia is a Mary Sue? Because I'm not seeing it....
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll have to disagree on the electricity thing. I could be convinced either way.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
And, something someone pointed out about Rogue One...

Bail Organa sent his daughter to Obi-Wan Kenobi before Scarif. The Tantive IV was being diverted to near Scarif to intercept the plans, yes, but Leia, the daughter of Anakin Skywalker, was one her way to Obi-wan, the last Jedi Bail knew about, hours before Scarif.

Bail, at least, had a plan to put a lightsaber in her hand.


Was the Tantive IV being "diverted" in the novelization?

...

On another topic, was someone suggesting that Leia is a Mary Sue? Because I'm not seeing it....


Recall that Bail, talking with Mon Mothma, says he knows just who to send to his Jedi friend.

As for the Mary Sue, no, it was directed at Mara Jade (a character I have no experience with), and I mentioned seeing it be directed at Rey.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
We'll have to disagree on the electricity thing. I could be convinced either way.


Fair enough, I suppose. After all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Then again, there's always Occam's Razor....
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
And, something someone pointed out about Rogue One...

Bail Organa sent his daughter to Obi-Wan Kenobi before Scarif. The Tantive IV was being diverted to near Scarif to intercept the plans, yes, but Leia, the daughter of Anakin Skywalker, was one her way to Obi-wan, the last Jedi Bail knew about, hours before Scarif.

Bail, at least, had a plan to put a lightsaber in her hand.


Was the Tantive IV being "diverted" in the novelization?

...

On another topic, was someone suggesting that Leia is a Mary Sue? Because I'm not seeing it....


Recall that Bail, talking with Mon Mothma, says he knows just who to send to his Jedi friend.

As for the Mary Sue, no, it was directed at Mara Jade (a character I have no experience with), and I mentioned seeing it be directed at Rey.


The Rey Mary Sue allegation strikes me as utter nonsense, but that's at least partially related to how I view the Mary Sue concept.

A Mary Sue does not mean someone who is exceptional or heroic. It means someone who is capable of literally anything without a good narrative reason, or to a degree that simply stretches credibility and harms the narrative overall.

I would posit that Superman -- especially in the 1950s -- is a "Mary Sue" character, since he seems to have a superpower for every possible situation. Same story with Batman in that era. "I'll just use my handy Bat-Magnesium-Detector" or "I'll use my Super-Pie-Baking abilities to make replacements for the ones Lex Luthor stole!"

Rey exhibits amazing ability at plot-convenient times. That part is true. But Daisy Ridley's acting and the structure of the scenes suggests that there are reasons behind it all. Her backstory and the overall direction of the story remains largely a mystery (note: I'm keeping myself in a media blackout for the remaining films, so I've purposely avoided spoilers and fan theories arising from leaked details in the Ep. VIII material. Haven't even watched the trailer, and likely won't.). My guess, however, is that there are very good reasons why, for example, Rey knows how to fix an old modified YT-1300, and why she is able to use the Force the way she does to defeat Kylo Ren in their duel.

Some of this, I suspect, will have to do with the Force itself, and shifting concepts of what the Force is, how it works, etc. But time will tell.

Anyway, my main point is that a character is not a Mary Sue if their powers and abilities serve the narrative and aren't used as a "Get out of plot peril free" card. If the writer doesn't have to do an @$$-pull of a power to get the character out of trouble, then the stakes remain high. If the character is not perfect and actually suffers some consequences for their imperfections, they aren't a Mary Sue.


With Mara Jade...I think, at least in the original Thrawn Trilogy, that it's debatable. She's not supremely powerful. She is extremely important to the plot, but she's a new character interacting with the old ones, and her interactions matter. She's certainly not the classic "bad fan fic" version of the Mary Sue (well, not in those three books, anyway), and I don't see her as a form of author insertion or wish fulfillment.

That said, I can understand fans having a negative reaction to her, if they went in wanting to read about their old favorites saving the galaxy, and instead the focus keeps shifting to "The new guy."
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
A Mary Sue does not mean someone who is exceptional or heroic. It means someone who is capable of literally anything without a good narrative reason, or to a degree that simply stretches credibility and harms the narrative overall.
Lightsaber duel.

Solo4114 wrote:
Rey exhibits amazing ability at plot-convenient times. That part is true. But Daisy Ridley's acting and the structure of the scenes suggests that there are reasons behind it all.
I was unpersuaded by her acting that her past included learning how to fight with a lightsaber.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
A Mary Sue does not mean someone who is exceptional or heroic. It means someone who is capable of literally anything without a good narrative reason, or to a degree that simply stretches credibility and harms the narrative overall.


Lightsaber duel.

Solo4114 wrote:
Rey exhibits amazing ability at plot-convenient times. That part is true. But Daisy Ridley's acting and the structure of the scenes suggests that there are reasons behind it all.


I was unpersuaded by her acting that her past included learning how to fight with a lightsaber.


But Bren, her ability with melee weapons was already foreshadowed when we see how handy she is with that staff of hers. Remember when Unkar Plutt's goons tried to steal BB-8 and Finn ran to help? Rey curbstomped those two goons with her staff before Finn had even finished running to get there. As has been mentioned numerous times, both on this forum and elsewhere, Rey appears to be a Force-sensitive prodigy. This is hinted at throughout the movie. Every interaction she had with Ren makes her stronger in the Force. He tries to mind probe her, but she reverses it and is able to look into his mind. He tries to mind trick her, but she resists and then uses the same trick on a stormtrooper to escape. During the lightsaber duel's pause at the cliff, Ren offers to be her teacher, but Rey gets her Heroic Second Wind when she taps into the Force and manages to defeat him. We actually see as Rey's Force abilities grow. We see her ability to use the Force grow right in front of us. It makes perfect sense to me that she has a natural talent in using the Force.

Ok, yeah, with all things being equal, there's no way that Rey should have been able to overcome Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. But here's the thing: all things weren't equal. Remember, Ren was very badly wounded by Chewbacca and the murder of his own father didn't strengthen him as he expected; it made him weaker instead, due to his Villainous Breakdown. All this provided Rey with a window of opportunity to defeat him, which she managed to take advantage of. All of this struck me as entirely plausible.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Especially if you don't necessarily decouple "skill with melee weapons" from "skill with lightsaber."
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Especially if you don't necessarily decouple "skill with melee weapons" from "skill with lightsaber."


Precisely.

(Did I just overtake MrNexx in post counts? I wasn't expecting that to happen this soon!) 8) Mr. Green
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Bren wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
A Mary Sue does not mean someone who is exceptional or heroic. It means someone who is capable of literally anything without a good narrative reason, or to a degree that simply stretches credibility and harms the narrative overall.


Lightsaber duel.

Solo4114 wrote:
Rey exhibits amazing ability at plot-convenient times. That part is true. But Daisy Ridley's acting and the structure of the scenes suggests that there are reasons behind it all.


I was unpersuaded by her acting that her past included learning how to fight with a lightsaber.


But Bren, her ability with melee weapons was already foreshadowed when we see how handy she is with that staff of hers. Remember when Unkar Plutt's goons tried to steal BB-8 and Finn ran to help? Rey curbstomped those two goons with her staff before Finn had even finished running to get there. As has been mentioned numerous times, both on this forum and elsewhere, Rey appears to be a Force-sensitive prodigy. This is hinted at throughout the movie. Every interaction she had with Ren makes her stronger in the Force. He tries to mind probe her, but she reverses it and is able to look into his mind. He tries to mind trick her, but she resists and then uses the same trick on a stormtrooper to escape. During the lightsaber duel's pause at the cliff, Ren offers to be her teacher, but Rey gets her Heroic Second Wind when she taps into the Force and manages to defeat him. We actually see as Rey's Force abilities grow. We see her ability to use the Force grow right in front of us. It makes perfect sense to me that she has a natural talent in using the Force.

Ok, yeah, with all things being equal, there's no way that Rey should have been able to overcome Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. But here's the thing: all things weren't equal. Remember, Ren was very badly wounded by Chewbacca and the murder of his own father didn't strengthen him as he expected; it made him weaker instead, due to his Villainous Breakdown. All this provided Rey with a window of opportunity to defeat him, which she managed to take advantage of. All of this struck me as entirely plausible.


I have my own unfounded theory here, too, which is that the Force itself is acting through Rey in some way. So, while some of this may be that Rey is a prodigy, some of it may be more along the lines of being imbued with divine power of sorts by the divine power itself.

This clashes with what we've grown to understand the Force "is." It's described in the OT as an energy field that partially controls your actions, but partially obeys your commands. It was also described as having a clear "light" side and a clear "dark" side, with no middle ground.

At a guess, the upcoming films will turn those notions on their heads (and maybe also explain away midichlorians?) by showing that the Old Republic Jedi and Sith understanding of the Force was but one interpretation (including an incorrect theory that midichlorians gave you the Force or something), and that the Force is more complex than just a black/white, good/evil system, and is far more active on its own than previously thought to be.

I mean, just look at the title: The Force Awakens. Not The Jedi Awaken or The Sith Awaken or even the Light or Dark Side Awakens. The Force Awakens. Almost as if it's a sentient thing unto itself. If that's the case, and it can act through Rey, then Rey isn't truly a Mary Sue, as much as she is a "Chosen One" and a vessel for a greater power outside herself. For that matter, Luke may have been a similar such vessel (and maybe even Anakin), with the Force acting through them in some way.

After all, Anakin was supposed to "bring balance to the Force." Which may have been misinterpreted as "destroy the Sith." "Balance" might mean returning to some kind of harmony that we haven't really explored yet, rather than just "The Sith were destroyed. That's your balance. The end." (And yes, I know Lucas himself is on record as saying that, but I don't actually care.)
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

(Did I just overtake MrNexx in post counts? I wasn't expecting that to happen this soon!) 8) Mr. Green


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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
But Bren, her ability with melee weapons was already foreshadowed when we see how handy she is with that staff of hers.
So the masterless Rey is not only a Force prodigy but also a combat prodigy? I'm still unconvinced.
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
But Bren, her ability with melee weapons was already foreshadowed when we see how handy she is with that staff of hers.
So the masterless Rey is not only a Force prodigy but also a combat prodigy? I'm still unconvinced.


Not a combat prodigy per se, but she was forced to live alone on a planet of scavengers who would steal anything she had if they got the opportunity, so she taught herself self-defense. It makes perfect sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
"Mary Sue" is generally Batman in a dress.

Batman is more than angsty. Batman suffers from severe trauma and has deep psychological issues.
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