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The orders rulings on the jedi strictures.
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:52 am    Post subject: The orders rulings on the jedi strictures. Reply with quote

Just how often has the jedi order actually denounced a member or initiate/padawan due to them breaking the jedi code?

I have seen and heard of countless jedi falling in love and even marrying. Yet in phantom menace and swtor we are informed that doing so can lead to expulsion from the order. And yet again I have never actually seen it happen.

It is blatantly obvious that master Yoda knew of Anakin's involvement with Padme, and even while Obi-wan told Anakin he would be "kicked out of the jedi order!" - It never happened.

I have a player who has learned a force tradition based on caring and understanding of others and is a matchmaker - believing in the union of people. Yet now they seek to become jedi.
Would the jedi even accept them?
The campaign is pre empire.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of those areas where the EU and the movies clash, and big time. One of the most prominent Jedi dynasties was started by a Jedi who married a woman (who was also massively Force-sensitive and became a powerful Jedi in her own right in time) and had a daughter with said wife. That dynasty was the Sunriders with the wife and daughter being Nomi and Vima.

Yet in the movies as you pointed out, attachments are verboten and looked down upon. Yet the fact remains that even after cutting Anakin's legs off, Obi-wan admits his OWN attachment to Anakin "You were my brother Anakin!"

I personally think that it comes down to which side of the Jedi spectrum you fall - the strict adherence to the Jedi Code, or more along the lines of the Living Force (very few fall in between, it's kind of an either or deal from what I understand). Both are very different philosophies within the Jedi Order, and I believe that the following of the Living Force would allow for attachments and such.

But ultimately, if you're running the game, the answer is - it's your game, do what you believe is the right thing for your game.

I have a counter question for you (and anyone else who cares to answer), one that I have pondered quite a few times and one you should consider with your current dilemma - how smart is it to kick someone who is only partially trained out of the Jedi Order? Shouldn't they be worried that said person would turn to the Dark Side? Same with not training someone after they've grown up. Again wouldn't it be better to try and train them rather than just let them go with the potential of becoming a dark-sider?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow me to present a contrary view.

In one of the many first drafts that lead to the creation of Star Wars, Luke Starkiller and his brother were trained in the ways of the force by thier father.

In the first four movies produced (IV, V, VI, & I) there is no mention of Jedi not being able to have relationships. On the contrary, we saw Luke's interest in Leia in the first two movies, which Obi-Wan encouraged to get Luke to join his quest. Leia and Han does not come up as an issue once we learn she is force sensitive. Anakin was hitting on Padme in ep I and no one said anything. There are hints of an attraction between Shmi and Qui-Gon. Throughout the EU Lucas retained creative control and told the writers not to mention the clone wars or the Jedi ghosts. It would have taken one sentence for him to say, 'Jedi take vows of celibacy, like Shaolin monks.' But he never said it. If he had planned jedi celibacy from the beginning, then it is the worst foreshadowed plot point in history, having multiple plot points that contradict it.

It is clear that Jedi celibacy was added in at ep II and previous to that film the concept did not exist and the contrary was true.

In fact, Luke's famous declaration, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me!" makes no sense in context now. If Jedi are celibate, then how can they have children? They would have to violate thier celibacy to do so
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion. Yes, there was somewhat of a disconnect between the EU and the films.

In the EU, the Republic and the Jedi order are a 1000 generations old based on Obi-Wan's line in ANH. In Lucas' prequel state of mine (likely aided by misremembering the exact line of ANH dialogue and not being bothered by consideration of EU continuity), the current Republic has only been around for 1000 years. At that time, the Sith were a recent offshoot of the preexisting Jedi Order. The Sith took control of the galaxy (Mace Windu to Palpatine: "The oppression of the Sith will never return!"), but the Jedi successfully rebelled against them and destroyed the Sith (or so they thought). The Jedi helped to establish the Republic which does not have any full-scale galactic war until the Clone War. The Jedi Order has practices in place designed to prevent Jedi from going to the Dark Side as the Sith had.

To retcon everything back together, the EU established that the Old Republic still formed 1000 generations ago as did the Jedi Order, and the new Sith 1000 years ago were a resurgent sect of Sith. After the Jedi saved the galaxy from Sith oppression, a new Republic was formed (in light of the post-RotJ New Republic, this Republic might be considered the Middle Republic but at the time of ANH it may have been commonly lumped in with the old Republic because both Republics were much more similar to each other than the Empire). It was then that the Jedi instituted the practices of disallowing Jedi to have families (be married, raise sons and daughters) to prevent attachment, which had lead some of the members of the pre-reformed Jedi Order to the Dark Side. All this allows for the prior Old Republic and Jedi Order to exist further in the past than the events leading to the films. That pretty much works, but then again I personally don't care about most of the EU's pre-prequel Jedi order because my personal canon doesn't deal with anything approximately between 25000 BBY to 2000 BBY (It only deals with before and after that time period).

Avoiding attachment in general is a Buddhist philosophy which was obviously an influence on Lucas. However lack of attachment does not necessarily mean celibacy. I see no evidence in the films, even the prequels, of celibacy being a definite rule for Jedi. Qui-Gon obviously had a one-night stand with Shmi in TPM but displayed no signs of attachment to her. Regardless of your personal code of conduct, it is possible for some people (especially people well-centered like Jedi Masters) to have casual romantic encounters and not developement attachments. Maybe celibacy was a Jedi "best practice" that Qui-Gon broke due to his defiant nature, but it is not specified one way or the other in the films.

It was obvious at the beginning of AotC that Obi-Wan knew Anakin had some level of infatuation with Padme, but doesn't necessarily mean he is going to act on those feelings and against the Jedi Order code of conduct. Near the end of the film when Anakin wanted to act on feelings for Padme, Obi-Wan stepped in and appropriately warned Anakin that he would be expelled from the Jedi Order if he disobeyed his master and abandoned the immediate concern of capturing or killing Count Dooku. The warning worked and Anakin relented.

Obi-Wan did not know of Anakin's secret marriage to Padme. Otherwise, when Obi-Wan visited Padme to try to learn where Anakin was and realized she was pregnant, Obi-Wan would have been accusing Padme of possible cheating on Anakin when he said, "Anakin is the father, isn't he?" And Obi-Wan was the padawan of Qui-Gon who was known to defy the Jedi Council to follow his own instincts, so maybe some of that rubbed off on Obi-Wan so he wasn't so strict with the guidelines himself (Yoda: "Qui-Gon defiance I sense in you"). And in RotS, before Anakin was known to have turned to the Dark Side, Obi-Wan clearly expressed that he felt Anakin was indeed the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith Order, so maybe he had been a little lenient with Anakin because he was going to save the galaxy anyway. He certainly would have had compassion for Anakin's for his mother dying in his arms (and across the galaxy Yoda knew Anakin was in terrible pain). Most Jedi wouldn't have these traumatic experiences because they come to the Jedi Order as babies before developing life-long attachments.

I disagree that Yoda knew of Anakin's involvement with Padme. When Anakin went to Yoda to discuss his visions of someone in his life dying, the novelization indicates that Anakin said it was someone close to him without being specific, to let Yoda believe it was Obi-Wan. There is nothing in the films or anything else I've come across to make me believe that Yoda really knew and just pretended he didn't, but I'd be happy to consider any evidence supporting this claim.

Luke wasn't raised in the Jedi Order like most Jedi, and he even started his training a decade older than his father had (who was already an exception to the rule as it was). Luke having an interest in rescuing Leia is not anything that would provoke any warnings from Obi-Wan because he really knows they are siblings. Since the twins had been separated soon after birth, Obi-Wan never saw them together except for maybe his quick glance over to the Falcon before he let Vader kill him. And Ghost Obi-Wan presumably didn't see Luke acting on his attraction to her and feel the need to step in ("Luke, use the Force, before intercourse."). Yes, the Jedi Order did try to prevent the situations that could engender feelings that might lead someone astray form the ideals of the Jedi, but ultimately it was your actions that counted the most.

And by Luke's time the Jedi Order was decimated so Yoda and Obi-Wan were just winging it. At the end of RotS, Obi-Wan expressed that the children must be hidden and separated so the Sith could not sense their presence, so at that time they were making a conscious choice to not follow the Jedi rule of training them from birth. In TESB, even though it had been 3 years since the Death Star had been destroyed, Palpatine tells Vader the offspring of Anakin Skywalker is a new enemy who could destroy them, only when Luke is about to receive training from Yoda. It seems clear the 2 Jedi Masters felt the twins had the best chance of surviving to adulthood to defeat the Sith if the twins were separated and not trained to be Jedi as children. And as Obi-Wan explains to Luke in RotJ, they were separated to protect them, and they were not told of each other before Luke's training was complete because of one sibling telling the Sith of the other, which became a extremely significant point of the drama of the climax of RotJ when Vader gets the info from Luke's mind and that provokes Luke to almost cross over to the Dark Side.

Luke said, "like my father before me" because Anakin his father had been a Jedi and he was in the same room. That makes perfect sense. Luke was trying desperately to inspire Anakin to become good again. And maybe celibacy was not the rule in the old Jedi Order just specifically so the Jedi (males anyway) could have one-night stands in the travels through the galaxy with no attachments, that later procreated children strong in the Force!
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: The orders rulings on the jedi strictures. Reply with quote

tetsuoh wrote:
I have seen and heard of countless jedi falling in love and even marrying. Yet in phantom menace and swtor we are informed that doing so can lead to expulsion from the order. And yet again I have never actually seen it happen.


You mean in real life? Laughing

DarthOmega wrote:
I personally think that it comes down to which side of the Jedi spectrum you fall - the strict adherence to the Jedi Code, or more along the lines of the Living Force (very few fall in between, it's kind of an either or deal from what I understand). Both are very different philosophies within the Jedi Order, and I believe that the following of the Living Force would allow for attachments and such.


I took care of this in my EU "Tales of the Ancient Republic" by postulating multiple Lightside sworn societies. Jedi are the militaristic branch, part and parcel of which is eschewing non-Jedi relationships. It's an ideal, and that aspect of the Order is adhered to fully by some, less fully by others, and rarely openly flouted (like Anakin eventually does, but that's multiple centuries later in my SWU).

I like your question, and I'll put it in another thread if you don't mind! I'm curious what others will say too.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Avoiding attachment in general is a Buddhist philosophy which was obviously an influence on Lucas. However lack of attachment does not necessarily mean celibacy. I see no evidence in the films, even the prequels, of celibacy being a definite rule for Jedi. Qui-Gon obviously had a one-night stand with Shmi in TPM but displayed no signs of attachment to her. Regardless of your personal code of conduct, it is possible for some people (especially people well-centered like Jedi Masters) to have casual romantic encounters and not developement attachments. Maybe celibacy was a Jedi "best practice" that Qui-Gon broke due to his defiant nature, but it is not specified one way or the other in the films.


I think that was his intent for the Jedi as presented in the films. However, I think as to the Jedi the celibacy intended is that of marriage/permanent romantic attachment, not necessarily asexuality. I prefer to read that in the films as a sign of the breakdown of the Jedi, when a great master is gettin' busy with the mother of the Chosen One (right?), and when Anakin openly flouts the rule in RotS it drives the point home further.

Given the role of the Jedi, I think I can rationalize the "avoiding human attachment" strand. There are plenty of murders, assaults, barroom brawls, and more that start over a romantic problem. The Ming, the Turks, and others used eunuch soldiers for one thing or another, a more drastic solution to the same problems. There are a couple of good fictional examples in A Game of Thrones too, the Unsullied and the Black Watch.

Whill wrote:
It was obvious at the beginning of AotC that Obi-Wan knew Anakin had some level of infatuation with Padme, but doesn't necessarily mean he is going to act on those feelings and against the Jedi Order code of conduct.
He uses it as a teaching point, multiple times, and Yoda does the same thing in RotS. Any Master that's had a padawan has surely had to deal with this problem, and as it is for Catholic laity and clergy called to celibacy, it's not a simple matter of "I swear" and then you stop thinking about it for the rest of your life.


Whill wrote:
Near the end of the film when Anakin wanted to act on feelings for Padme, Obi-Wan stepped in and appropriately warned Anakin that he would be expelled from the Jedi Order if he disobeyed his master and abandoned the immediate concern of capturing or killing Count Dooku. The warning worked and Anakin relented.

Obi-Wan did not know of Anakin's secret marriage to Padme. Otherwise, when Obi-Wan visited Padme to try to learn where Anakin was and realized she was pregnant, Obi-Wan would have been accusing Padme of possible cheating on Anakin when he said, "Anakin is the father, isn't he?"

And Obi-Wan was the padawan of Qui-Gon who was known to defy the Jedi Council to follow his own instincts, so maybe some of that rubbed off on Obi-Wan so he wasn't so strict with the guidelines himself (Yoda: "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you").


I saw this as Lucas showing us that the Jedi had lost their mojo, and infidelity to their vows was one reason for that (as you say perhaps abetted by masters turning a blind eye here and there).

Whill wrote:
I disagree that Yoda knew of Anakin's involvement with Padme. When Anakin went to Yoda to discuss his visions of someone in his life dying, the novelization indicates that Anakin said it was someone close to him without being specific, to let Yoda believe it was Obi-Wan. There is nothing in the films or anything else I've come across to make me believe that Yoda really knew and just pretended he didn't, but I'd be happy to consider any evidence supporting this claim.


I don't have any "evidence", but this is another shot that I think is supposed to show us that the Jedi Order is in disarray. Here either (1) Yoda can't figure out what's happening or (2) he's seen enough padawans over the years to know what's happening, and whether or not it's Padme really is no nevermind. Another teachable moment for the Jedi.

Whill wrote:
Luke wasn't raised in the Jedi Order like most Jedi, and he even started his training a decade older than his father had (who was already an exception to the rule as it was). Luke having an interest in rescuing Leia is not anything that would provoke any warnings from Obi-Wan because he really knows they are siblings.
I think if we're going to take the movies as a whole, that probably didn't matter much more to Obi-Wan than Anakin puppy-dogging Padme did. Or, since he was training the last Jedi, he thought it better to leave the celibacy talk out for the moment. It really wasn't an issue in Mos Eisley or hyperspace, and barely on the Death Star.

Whill wrote:
And Ghost Obi-Wan presumably didn't see Luke acting on his attraction to her and feel the need to step in ("Luke, use the Force, before intercourse.").
Smile I like it, maybe that's stamped on condom machines in Jedi cruisers.

Whill wrote:
Yes, the Jedi Order did try to prevent the situations that could engender feelings that might lead someone astray form the ideals of the Jedi, but ultimately it was your actions that counted the most.
Whether or not Lucas was really showing us the Jedi were unraveling, he clearly did want to show the frailty of humans in struggling to live up to their vows.

Whill wrote:
And by Luke's time the Jedi Order was decimated so Yoda and Obi-Wan were just winging it.
Yep, if they're all that's left, they may have been rethinking how things went before and trying to avoid the same problems.

Whill wrote:
And maybe celibacy was not the rule in the old Jedi Order just specifically so the Jedi (males anyway) could have one-night stands in the travels through the galaxy with no attachments, that later procreated children strong in the Force!
I don't know why females couldn't have one-nighters too, if they're going to be admitted to the order. Anyway, I agree that it's easy to conceive an order that forbids its members to marry/pair in long-term attachments.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's just it; Jedi don't actually have to have children. The Force will ALWAYS find a way.

How long do you suppose celibacy was imposed upon the Jedi Order, and yet they still kept finding individuals to bring to the Temple and train up as Jedi? One does not need to necessarily be part of a Jedi's lineage in order to be strong in the Force.

However, the Order could have allowed Jedi to continue to marry and have children, and used that as part of teaching the doctrine of not having attachments, but altering it so that one understands the need to put the good of the galaxy above themselves, even if it means never seeing their family again. Having Jedi who are regularly having children would have meant the ranks of the Jedi would have been exponentially greater, and it's possible that things would have turned out vastly different than they did in the films.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I will step into this discussion now =)

Something we should take into consideration is the passage of time and the change of ideas. For example, homosexuality in the Catholic church was evil, not its pretty much being accepted. Same thing with the Jedi.

I would say that the Jedi order has probably had a change in how it deals with relationships several times over its lifetime. We also have to accept that there was dogma in the Jedi order.

I would guess the majority of this dogma was either not very important or the acceptance or lack thereof also changed over time. This also brings up an interesting idea of dogma and multi-generations. Think of how people start out liberal and become more conservative as they get older as an example.

The current dogma of no emotional attachments is held by the Jedi Council and those others who have drunk the Kool-Aid. I am sure Anakin was not the first to ignore dogma to follow his heart.

I think the question is deceptively hard. How it is accepted and how it is dealt with directly relate to the time/era as well as those in control of the council.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. All I was trying to get across was that the whole no-attachment/chastity/celibacy, whatever thing was a late addition retcon after thirty years of contrary stories. Granted, it was the middle of my sleep cycle, so I could have been more clear.

It would be like putting out another Back to the Future movie with Biff suddenly, and with no explanation, being the hero. It just didn't make sense. It is a clear continuity error, one of the biggest in any series.

To clarify that point about "I am a Jedi..." Luke is declaring his adherence to the light side by advocating attachment and a clear violation of the Jedi strictures, both steps toward the dark side, similar steps his father took. Palpatine would have cackled in joy at such a convoluted statement and told Luke something like, "with every moment you become more and more my servant."

Seriously, hire an editor.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barrataria wrote:
I agree that it's easy to conceive an order that forbids its members to marry/pair in long-term attachments.

Barrataria wrote:
Whill wrote:
...so the Jedi (males anyway) could have one-night stands in the travels through the galaxy with no attachments, that later procreated children strong in the Force!

I don't know why females couldn't have one-nighters too, if they're going to be admitted to the order.

I wasn't talking about Jedi casual sex in general - In that sentence I was considering the possibility of Jedi casual sex with the real possibility of procreating Force-sensitive children that later become candidates for the Jedi Order. The reason I specified males is because Jedi males can "plant their seeds in the non-Jedi soil and leave the farm behind", to move on to the next mission (and with no down time). The Jedi Order can go back later and "evaluate the crops."

Female Jedi having casual sex to get pregnant means they carry the child. That may not form an attachment to the baby's daddy, but it very likely would create an attachment to their child they carry for eight or nine months and give birth to. I can't see the Jedi Order producing future generations by having "Jedi Mothers" and still preaching the anti-attachment message. And, "Jedi Mothers" would be taken out of field duty for a while.

Please don't mistake my statements about casual sex to represent any sort of misogyny in my person, or even the suggestion of misogyny existing in the Jedi Order. (There were females on the Jedi Council!) As a result of biological function in sexual species, there are significant differences between the two genders of Jedi having casual sex to procreate future Jedi, and I was just trying to think about it logically. It is much easier for males to not become attached to children they only conceive and move on from, as opposed to females that can't. That's all.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Wow. All I was trying to get across was that the whole no-attachment/chastity/celibacy, whatever thing was a late addition retcon after thirty years of contrary stories. Granted, it was the middle of my sleep cycle, so I could have been more clear.

...It just didn't make sense. It is a clear continuity error, one of the biggest in any series.

I respectfully disagree with all of your statements. It was not a continuity error. Lucas was never bound to maintain continuity with the EU. Lucas, the owner of the Star Wars properties at the time, established a canon structure that indicated the films were a higher tier than the EU. That included the three films not yet created at the time of the establishment of the EU. The tier level meant, in theory, that the EU was supposed to conform to the films, but the films did not have to conform to the EU. It was public knowledge starting in the early 90s that if there ever were going to be more films, they could freely contradict the EU based on the canon tier structure. Lucas didn't specifically declare that the pre-Empire Jedi Order had families in the EU. He just didn't disallow it.

I'm not going to bother arguing here that Lucas is an cinematic artist or that he is a good artist. But what's important here is that Lucas sees himself an a cinematic artist. His films, while undeniably commercial products that made money, were also his artworks. In addition to seeing himself as an artist, Lucas is objectively a very successful businessman. What some EU fans don't realize is that the EU was never about art, to Lucas. It was only ever about business. The EU existed because it was a valuable product made from valuable property, and it could make money. You and I may rebel against that idea out of love for some EU products, or even appreciation for their artistry, but to Lucas, the owner of Star Wars, the EU was only a money machine.

The decisions he made in regards to EU content were business decisions, and a lot of the smaller decisions were delegated to others that worked under him. By Lucas restricting the pre-prequel EU from delving too deeply into certain aspects he knew were going to be dealt with in the prequels (such as Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, Luke and Leia's mother, the formation of the Empire, details of the Clone Wars, etc), Lucas wasn't worried about contradictions. His real concerns were: (1) They might get too close to his version and spoil the films (there was already so much known about the backstory anyway from the original films themselves). (2) He wanted the most important aspects to be fresh things never dealt with in the franchise before (as much as possible). And Lucas made business decisions about the post-RotJ EU as well. In the Jedi Order, the authors actually proposed to kill Luke Skywalker. Lucas vetoed that, not because it would contradict with some future film, but just because he thought it was bad business to kill of Luke Han or Leia. Luke sells. (But Lucas did approve their counterproposal of killing Chewbacca.) The aspects of the EU that were incorporated into film canon were not done so out of any requirement. Lucas chose to canonize the name of Coruscant, for example. He didn't have to.

For something to be a continuity error, that would mean there was an intention to not violate the continuity but a mistake was made. That was not the case at all. Lucas, intentionally disregarded EU continuity because the Jedi Order eschewing attachment like a Buddhist monk was part of the story he had to tell. (Plotwise, it's really a simple thing. Anakin has an attachment to his mother but is separated from her. The next time he sees her, she dies in his arms. Then Anakin has visions of his secret wife dying and works to prevent it, but in doing so actually created it.) As a self-proclaimed artist, Lucas wasn't going to let something else (also under his ownership and control) get in the way of his story and his art.

Personally I also don't see how this disconnect between the prior EU's family-having Jedi Order and the prequel's non-attachment Jedi Order is a big issue anyway. The EU's retcon to conform with the prequel films (which is how that was always intended to work) was that the Jedi Order had implemented new rules 1000 years ago. Thus all the prior EU continuity is saved.

If it's your opinion that Lucas' prequels shouldn't have contradicted the EU anyway, that's your opinion and I respect that (even if I don't agree with you). If you say you happen to like the EU's Jedi Order better than the prequel filmic Jedi Order, that is also your opinion and I respect your preference. But it is an objective fact that Lucas did not 'oops' and contradict with the EU's Jedi Order in error.

Kytross wrote:
Wow... Seriously, hire an editor.

I'm assuming that editor comment was directed at Lucas and not any of us here. If I'm wrong, perhaps you could PM that person with your concern.

Kytross wrote:
To clarify that point about "I am a Jedi..." Luke is declaring his adherence to the light side by advocating attachment and a clear violation of the Jedi strictures, both steps toward the dark side, similar steps his father took. Palpatine would have cackled in joy at such a convoluted statement and told Luke something like, "with every moment you become more and more my servant."

Since I was a tween in '83 and first saw RotJ in the theater, it has been clear to me that Luke was on the verge of crossing over to the Dark Side before he said that. The drama of both sequels was centered around the question of Luke choosing the Jedi path or the Dark Side. Would he make the same choice as his father? When Luke said, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" he was not advocating attachment. Luke wouldn't necessarily know anything about the old Jedi Order's rules. The Emperor was obviously perturbed by Luke's choice to not kill his father and thus not turn. The Emperor's reply to Luke's declaration is, "So be it, Jedi. If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed." Luke says the statement more for Vader the Emperor. By Luke saying, "like my father before me" he was referencing the fact that his father had once been a good guy and could be again. And the Jedi did indeed return. This is even more supported by the comments Anakin made about compassion and altruistic love in AotC. Compassion is possible without attachment.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to explain Whill, I believe we're all adults and realize the realities of procreation. I would hope that you speaking the truth isn't going to cause anyone to get hurt feelings Very Happy.

At any rate, I believe that, as you stated earlier, working with the idea of an evolving Jedi Order works best to explain differences in how the order views the attachment issue. As for Qui-Gon's 'defiance', if I recall correctly he was a strong advocate of the Living Force philosophy.

I REALLY want to talk about your views on the EU and how Lucas is in regards to it, but that wouldn't be on topic, and I could go on with a few paragraphs on my views of it. I will state for the record on Chewbacca's death - not only did Lucas accept the proposal, he pushed for it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further muddling the issue is Ki-ad mundi, one of the masters who supposedly had more than one wife.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Further muddling the issue is Ki-ad mundi, one of the masters who supposedly had more than one wife.

No muddle. The EU did its job and made up a retcon: "Mundi was granted a rare exception to the Jedi Order's ban on marriage due to his species' low birth rate and had a polygamous family of five wives and seven children, although he tried to avoid developing emotional attachments to them." Easy Peasy.
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Please don't mistake my statements about casual sex to represent any sort of misogyny in my person, or even the suggestion of misogyny existing in the Jedi Order. (There were females on the Jedi Council!) As a result of biological function in sexual species, there are significant differences between the two genders of Jedi having casual sex to procreate future Jedi, and I was just trying to think about it logically. It is much easier for males to not become attached to children they only conceive and move on from, as opposed to females that can't. That's all.


I wasn't accusing you of anything, and it hadn't occurred to me that you were suggesting that the Jedi... um.. farm? padawans across the galaxy. It's an interesting idea.

As to your last sentence, it seems to me that any female jedi would be completely in touch with her body enough to recognize, if not control, ovulation. and thus totally able to choose if and when to have a child. In the Ancient/Old Republic IMC, the Jedi are very itinerant and often working in pairs or alone, so I think the vagabond-type ethic would be pretty strong. Wham Bam Thank you Ma'am/Sir, that's the Jedi Way!

I didn't mean to turn this into a little netbook of SW sex, but it's an issue that's raised by the whole concept of Jedi celibacy, and it's been helpful to kick it around here.
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