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Best way to handle lightsaber combat styles...
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Xzil Maru
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject: Best way to handle lightsaber combat styles... Reply with quote

such as those mentioned in that old issue of Starwars Insider or this website http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

or this site
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~hansene/swrpg/jedi-styles.html

I was thinking of making them advanced skills.
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Esjs
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... I'm not sure there needs to be a game mechanic for "style." It seems to me that if a character wants to subscribe to a certain "style," then so be it; no need to make a "rule" for it. In the end, it's still just skill-versus-skill... and you can describe the "choreography" (sp?) however you wish.

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Xzil Maru
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How then should I handle PCs whose goal it is to master the lightsaber and all its fighting forms?

I kind of like the extra crunchiness that comes from having distinct lightsaber combat styles, but I'm not sure the coolest or funnest way to implement them.

I also like using/making different martial arts techniques such asWookie and Noghri martial arts or Tëras Käsi fighting form.
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RedFox
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the Star Wars Insider have game rules for 'em?
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Esjs
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xzil Maru wrote:
How then should I handle PCs whose goal it is to master the lightsaber and all its fighting forms?

I kind of like the extra crunchiness that comes from having distinct lightsaber combat styles, but I'm not sure the coolest or funnest way to implement them.

I also like using/making different martial arts techniques such asWookie and Noghri martial arts or Tëras Käsi fighting form.


Ah, I see what you (and your PCs) are getting at now. What I would do is say they "learn a new style" each time they raise the number of dice in their lightsaber skill.

For example:
    When you reach 2D in lightsaber skill, you learn style X.
    When you reach 3D in lightsaber skill, you learn style Y.
    When you reach 4D in lightsaber skill, you learn style Z.
    Etc.

This could be used with the "Dual Lightsaber" Advanced skill discussed in the following thread:
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=361

To me, this means you don't need "new rules," and it gives the sense of achievement (sp?) and "level up" or "rank" that seems to be associated with martial arts. Smile

Now, when it comes to using the "styles" in combat... I think that's just something that you're going to have to roleplay. Again, don't try to make game mechanics for each style... just pretend what the effects and outcome of each style are... that's your job as the GM.
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about looking at some old fencing manuals and other old manuals that deal with using a sword? I'd think you'd be able to use them to come up with some lightsaber moves that could be used.
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Xzil Maru
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedFox wrote:
Did the Star Wars Insider have game rules for 'em?


Star Wars Insider doesn't have game rules for anything that would be Star Wars Gamer's job, and we all know how that went.

Esjs wrote:
Ah, I see what you (and your PCs) are getting at now. What I would do is say they "learn a new style" each time they raise the number of dice in their lightsaber skill.


An interesting suggestion, Esjs, thank you. Certainly easier than what I was hoping for but definately feasible.


I still want to work out rules for Vaapad, and the other combat styles that are mentioned in the EU (and their inheriant weaknesses/strengths), and now even in the Episode III novelization (thankyou Redfox for letting me read your signed copy).
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO the best way to represent Mace Windu's Vaapad is give him 14D in Lightsaber. He's one of the best...simple as that.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you do workout rules for Vaapad, keep in mind that you should include a warning about how users of Vaapad could fall to the dark side due to Vaapad's very aggressive nature.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
Well if you do workout rules for Vaapad, keep in mind that you should include a warning about how users of Vaapad could fall to the dark side due to Vaapad's very aggressive nature.


I talked with him about this. My suggestion was to simply give a Dark Side point whenever you used Vaapad. (this would necessitate a warning, as usual)

He had another system in mind where you roll dice after using it and make a check, I believe.

Personally I'd say everyone is learning the default form unless there's some special training involved.

My current thought on the matter is to handle it in a similar way that Force powers are currently handled... e.g. it's something that you either know or you don't, and you make a lightsaber skill check to "activate" the style you want to use. Most forms would have an advantage and a weakness, save for the default form.

Learning them would be similar to powers. You can either pick up the style for "free" when you raise your lightsaber skill 1D while training in that particular style, or you can buy it "separately" from your lightsaber skill for a set amount of CP per style (maybe the same amount as buying a Force power?).

EDIT: Certain styles would be learnable by anyone, even saber-rakes or people using similar energy weapons based on lightsabers and the non-Force Sensitive. Most Jedi styles (save the default) would have a pre-requisite of knowing the lightsaber combat Force Power.

As a rule of thumb, I'd say anything that requires preternatural skill and/or provides inhuman sfx or advantages would require knowing the lightsaber combat power. This keeps most styles only in the hands of the Force Sensitive, while still allowing non-Force Sensitive duelists to add some style and spice to their saber fighting.
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RedFox
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an example using my proposed system. "Availability" merely represents how common a style was during the height of the Jedi Order, and therefore how many jedi would know such a style. For handy-dandy reference, you can compare them to difficulty ratings such as Common = Very Easy and roll your jedi master's lightsaber skill against them as a check to see if s/he knows a particular style. Wink

Vaapad
Availability: Unique*
Difficulty: Very Difficult
Prerequisites: Lightsaber Combat

Vapaad is the ultimate speed style, known only to Mace Windu and his personal students he has deemed able to handle the brush with darkness this style draws upon.

Upon a successful lightsaber skill check, the practitioner of Vaapad's lightsaber becomes a blur of motion, seeming to strike from many angles at once. The practitioner gains a number of extra dice that may be used only for lightsaber attack actions (not parries) equal to her total Force Skill dice for the rest of the combat round.

Unfortunately the practice of Vaapad touches the Dark Side as the user allows herself to momentarily lose herself in the joy of combat. Every time Vaapad is used, the practitioner gains a dark side point. Additionally, the user must make a Difficult Willpower check to not kill a target while using Vaapad, if the opportunity presents itself. A target is defined as someone that the Vaapad practitioner has made an attack action against. This overrules the usual optional rule about striking to maim instead of kill, if that rule is being used. The practitioner may still try to maim a target, but must succeed at the Willpower check to do so.

* Vaapad was only ever known to Mace Windu and one apprentice.
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RedFox
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Example: Mace Windu has 14D lightsaber, 10D control, 8D sense, and 8D alter (for purposes of this demonstration).

He wins initiative on some scary vibroshield guy in the jungle and already has lightsaber combat active, giving him +8D on lightsaber skill rolls and may add or subtract up to 10D from lightsaber damage rolls he makes.

He decides to take 8 actions this round, on top of the two required to keep lightsaber combat active. His first action is to activate Vaapad, a Moderate lightsaber skill check at 5D (due to the -9D for multiple actions). His other seven actions are all attacks.

Assuming he successfully activates Vaapad, he can make his seven lightsaber attacks at 39D (14D lightsaber skill, +26D from Vaapad, +8D from the lightsaber combat power, -9D for multiple action penalties). However, if he were to parry with any of his actions this round, his dice pool for the first such parry would only be 13D due to not gaining the Vaapad bonus.

At the end of the round, the GM would award Mace Windu a dark side point.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedFox wrote:

* Vaapad was only ever known to Mace Windu and one apprentice.


And Master Sora Bulq who helped Mace Windu develop Vaapad. Master Bulq taught it to Quinlan Vos when he was retraining him after he'd lost his memory. Master Windu learned that Master Vos had been taught Form VII, Vaapad, on Lianna during a practice duel between the two. Windu was shocked by Vos using a Vaapad manuver and told a stunned Vos that Vaapad was very aggressive and could lead one to the dark side, a position Quinlan Vos was already to close to.
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Xzil Maru
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataru is form IV: its highly acrobatic, but tiring (so Stamina checks?). Yoda is a master of Ataru it also makes you hard to hit since your leaping around so much thus dodge bonus maybe?

Makeshi, or Form II is designed to counter other lightsaber wielders, it tends to be studied by Sith since they expect to kill Jedi. A proponent is Count Dooku. It is still believed to be an impractical form because of its limited application. Bonus when fighting an opponent with a Lightsaber, penality otherwise.

Djem So is Form V and consists of highly offensive power combat (Anakin/Vader uses it). Its takes advantage of the lightsabers ability to block blasters and turns it into a form of attack.

Obi-Wan is a master of Soresu, or form III. Its the ultimate defensive style but isn't very good at attacking. "A Form III master might be undefeatable, but neither could he necessarily overcome his enemy."
I'm figuring penalities to attack but bonuses to parry.

Form I is the basic style (no rule mods)

Form VI is a combination of the other forms but I'm not sure what makes it so special (especially because it seems inferior to those styles).

The more I read about these styles the more it seems that each requires lots of dedication to learn, and even more to master. Few Jedi can master more than one style. If possible it would be cool to model this aspect of lightsaber combat especially because each style should have an area at which it excels and an area where its weak.

EDIT for Vaapad I was thinking you get a contested willpower roll against the number of extra dice bonus at the end of the combat. If you make it you don't get a DP, if you fail you do get a DP. So in Redfoxes example Mace once combat ends would have to roll his willpower against the number of bonus dice granted by his Vaapad. Or instead of having it be variable, make it a Very Difficult willpower roll.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A while back, I had found a D6 supplement called Dueling Blades. It might be helpful.

Quote:
Years ago I whipped up these alternative dueling rules for the D6 system, though you can easily modify it for any roleplaying game engine. It allows for more results than simply hitting and inflicting damage in hand-to-hand combat. Dueling Blades can work in any game where you want to add some swashbuckling flair to your combat.

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