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Ning Leihrec
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 Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 4:32 pm Post subject: Backup Hyperdrives: lame or legit? |
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| It often seems to me that hyperdrive backups are really just a bogus retcon to explain how the Falcon got from Hoth to Bespin in a reasonable time without ftl. Why didn't Han engage the backups immediately when the main drive failed? Are there some details in the RAW to explain that or is it simply because backup hyperdrives were made up to solve said plot hole? They make sense on many levels... Nobody wants to be stranded in deep space, but why aren't they used for a quick getaway more often when the main drive fails? Even if they have to be overhauled after each use, are they harder to engage or something? |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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The main reasoning has been that since they are MUCH slower, and a hyperdrive trajectory can be traced, then it is almost a sure fire way of someone to be there waiting for you once you get there. E.I., how Boba Fett kind of was. And he even had enough time to set a nice dinner table.
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Ning Leihrec
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Is there anything in the RAW about tracing hyperspace trajectories? Can any jump be traced? This would necessitate fake out coordinates for the initial jump in most getaways no? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | The main reasoning has been that since they are MUCH slower, and a hyperdrive trajectory can be traced, then it is almost a sure fire way of someone to be there waiting for you once you get there. E.I., how Boba Fett kind of was. And he even had enough time to set a nice dinner table. |
On top of that, I recall mention somewhere that the Backup Hyperdrive, in addition to being slow, was also fragile enough to require servicing or overhauling after a single use. As such, combined with what Cheshire said, not only was it slow, but you couldn't use it to jump a few light years, then drop to normal space to plot a new course. You were pretty much stuck with the destination you had picked.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Ning Leihrec wrote: | | Is there anything in the RAW about tracing hyperspace trajectories? Can any jump be traced? This would necessitate fake out coordinates for the initial jump in most getaways no? |
Plenty. Check the descriptions for sensor types in the SW Sourcebook, as well as the rules for Gravity Well Projectors in Wanted by Cracken.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Ning Leihrec
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| The SW sourcebook i own is 1st edition, but from its chapter on sensors it seems like a ship would need a hyperwave signal interceptor to detect a vessel's destination. Is there a way for more standard issue sensors to track jumping ships, or is the hsi more commonly equipped than it seems? Am I missing something provided in 2nd edition? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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The write-up doesn't change appreciably between 1E and 2E, and no real guidance is provided as to what ships are equipped with what. Put simply, the commonality of HSIs in your SWU is up to you.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | The main reasoning has been that since they are MUCH slower, and a hyperdrive trajectory can be traced, then it is almost a sure fire way of someone to be there waiting for you once you get there. E.I., how Boba Fett kind of was. And he even had enough time to set a nice dinner table. |
On top of that, I recall mention somewhere that the Backup Hyperdrive, in addition to being slow, was also fragile enough to require servicing or overhauling after a single use. As such, combined with what Cheshire said, not only was it slow, but you couldn't use it to jump a few light years, then drop to normal space to plot a new course. You were pretty much stuck with the destination you had picked. |
I have heard people say that before, but never seen anything in writing.
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ning Leihrec wrote: | | It often seems to me that hyperdrive backups are really just a bogus retcon to explain how the Falcon got from Hoth to Bespin in a reasonable time without ftl. Why didn't Han engage the backups immediately when the main drive failed? Are there some details in the RAW to explain that or is it simply because backup hyperdrives were made up to solve said plot hole? They make sense on many levels... Nobody wants to be stranded in deep space, but why aren't they used for a quick getaway more often when the main drive fails? Even if they have to be overhauled after each use, are they harder to engage or something? |
It's not a retcon. The backup hyperdrive explanation was a level of detail not covered by the film, not a retroactive change to the continuity of the film. And if it wasn't backup hyperdrives, then there must be some other explanation. You criticize the solution but don't offer any alternative solution. If you have any other explanations I'd love to entertain your ideas.
An alternative suggestion I've read was that the Hoth, Anoat and Bespin systems were actually a trinary star system of three stars far enough apart that they each had their own planetary systems, with asteroid fields in between. A problem with that idea (and no hyperdrive backup) is that it should have been clear to Vader's fleet that the Falcon was having hyperdrive problems (or they would have long ago escaped to hyperspace). If so then Anoat and Bespin would be the only possible destinations, and Han and Leia would know the Empire would just send forces there which would mean Bespin shouldn't be thought of by Han as a possible safe haven.
| Ning Leihrec wrote: | | Is there anything in the RAW about tracing hyperspace trajectories? Can any jump be traced? This would necessitate fake out coordinates for the initial jump in most getaways no? |
| Quote: | Admiral Piett: Lord Vader, our ships have completed their scan of the area and found nothing. If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now.
Darth Vader: Alert all commands. Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory. |
No matter what the rules might be, it is clear that star destroyers have that technology, and likely that Han would know that.
I find it is often easier to just apply additional detail to existing solutions than to provide a completely different one. Perhaps the damage to the Falcon's hyperdrive damaged both systems, but the main hyperdrive was worse and they got the backup working first. Maybe the backup was not damaged but just glitchy in the first place, and they got working good enough to get them to Bespin. Maybe the heavy modifications on the Falcon required them to reverse the negative power coupling (or some other technobabble) before using the backup hyperdrive.
The existence of backup hyperdrive doesn't mean there also couldn't be some rational explanation for it not being available for immediate use when the main drive failed. And the game rules only need to allow you to create new adventures that feel like could take place in the same universe as the films - The films do not have to exactly conform to the game rules in every instance. "Bogus retcon" seems rather harsh, but of course you should make it work however you need it to in your SWU.
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Ning Leihrec
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| I can respect that Whill. Even if the backups are in perfect condition they're only good for one short slow jump. It would be foolish for Han to use them while the star destroyers are in pursuit. He wouldn't be able to drop out of hyperspace to change his coordinates, the Imps would track his trajectory, and head him off at his destination. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ning Leihrec wrote: | | I can respect that Whill. Even if the backups are in perfect condition they're only good for one short slow jump. It would be foolish for Han to use them while the star destroyers are in pursuit. He wouldn't be able to drop out of hyperspace to change his coordinates, the Imps would track his trajectory, and head him off at his destination. |
And there ya go. That certainly seems reasonable to me.
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The Brain
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually the only time I recall ever reading about a backup hyper drive needing to be overhauled after 1 jump it was in Galaxy Guide 6: Tramp Freighters the cheappo ×5 Hyperdrive that was recommended as only a back-up hyperdrive although at x5 it's a vast improvement over just about every other ship's stock backup hyperdrive. Still if your hyperspace course can be at least plotted even an ISD can lumber along and beat you to your next stop. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:22 am Post subject: |
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I knew I'd seen it somewhere. The problem with the tracking scenario is that a smart captain could make a short jump that looks like it is heading for one system, then drop out of hyperspace somewhere in interstellar space and plot a new course while the pursuers fly on blindly by, none the wiser.
The Black Fleet Crisis offered a potential tech fix for this, with Soliton Wave Tracking in hyperspace. Basically, a pursuing ship would track the escaping ship with its HSI, detecting is course and speed, then jump into hyperspace after it. The Soliton Wave Tracker would then track the target's hyperspace wake,, and when the wake drops off, the pursuer knows that its quarry has dropped out of hyperspace.
IIRC, this flies in the face of some EU conventional wisdom, that ships couldn't be tracked in hyperspace. It could potentially be experimental tech as of TESB, or at least not in common usage, but known to the point where Han, as a Rebel officer, might've been briefed on it and known that Vader's squadron would likely equipped with it, and therefore known to take precautions.
Of course, if the basis for the assumption that ships couldn't be tracked through hyperspace is based on Han's ANH line "we'll be safe enough once we make the jump to hyperspace", it could be explained that any pursuing ships simply wouldn't be fast enough to pursue the Falcon through hyperspace, and that soliton wakes dissipate fairly quickly. With the Falcon being 4x faster than an ISD I in hyperspace, its soliton wake would dissipate to rapidly for the ISDs to track.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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