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Damage/Wound & Healing modifications
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: Damage/Wound & Healing modifications Reply with quote

R&E wrote:
Combat is Dangerous!

Combat in the Star Wars game is fairly lethal. The key to survival is not to get hit.
If someone is shooting at your character, you should probably think about dodging...
Just like in the movies, most characters that get shot are seriously injured or killed. You've been warned!

A few years ago I was tinkering with the wound system and wrote down some shorthand notes in a notebook, and I recently found these notes. I thought I would write it out in full form and post it here to get some feedback. I think the tinkering may have initially been inspired by a comment in old thread here, but I didn't make a clear notation of that and couldn't find it when I searched for it.

Following are three possible mods to the Damage/Wound system...


Modification 1: Somewhat Revised Wound Status Accumulation Rules

Background: Characters can acquire a wound status from a single damage roll, and an existing wound status can change to another as a result of cumulative effects from multiple injuries. Wounded twice is the only status that is not directly possible from a single injury.

Let's say:

W = wounded
2W = wounded twice
I = incapacitated
M = mortally wounded
K = killed

OK, here are some quotes from R&E that suggest patterns/formulas.

Quote:
Wounded characters fall prone and can take no actions for the rest of the round. The character suffers a penalty of −1D to skill and attribute rolls until he heals (through medpacs or natural rest)

Wounded inherently has a value of "1D". Let's define W = 1.

Quote:
A [wounded] character who is wounded a second time is wounded twice.

W + W = 2W = 2

Quote:
A character who's wounded twice... suffers a penalty of −2D to all skill and attribute rolls until he is healed.

Wounded twice is likewise valued at "2D". Further support for 2W = 2

Quote:
A wounded twice character who is wounded again is incapacitated.

2W + W = I = 3. In D6 Space, characters who are incapacitated can make a stamina or willpower check to remain conscious, and if they succeed they suffer a -3D penalty to all actions. This further supports incapacitated being valued at "3D".

Quote:
An incapacitated character who is wounded ... again becomes mortally wounded.

I + W = M
3 + 1 = 4
M = 4

Mortally wounded is on the verge of death, so it is reasonable that killed could be 5. That gives us:

W = 1
2W = 2
I = 3
M = 4
K = 5 (or more)

What if multiple wound status results are cumulative completely based on these numerical values? Not only would I + W = M like in RAW, but W + I = M as well. This would change RAW's I + I = M to (I + I) = 3 + 3 = 6 (killed). And 2W + I = 2 + 3 = 5 = K. And rare as it may be, this would also undo RAW's silly circumstance that M characters can apparently take unlimited Ws and not be moved down to K - With this formula, any Ws to an M character would mean instant death (as it should be).

This modification would make combat a bit deadlier, but a tad more realistic and more dramatic as well. A wound alone is not a huge deal to a lot of PC-level characters, but here there is the drama that an incapacitated on top of that would send the character directly to mortally wounded (and a mortally wounded on top of a single wound would mean going straight to killed). Wounded twice is potentially deadlier, because an incapacitated on top of that would mean going straight to killed. So even single-wounded characters should start considering taking more precautions, getting out of the fight altogether or otherwise trying to ensure they don't get injured further. I feel wounds should be dramatic, and not just "It's only -1D."

But this modification is not normally going to affect characters who are already incapacitated or mortally wounded because most characters are usually not going to keep shooting at someone when they are already unconscious (at least not in my SWU), but of course there could still be other dangers present on the battlefield threatening further injury.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:17 pm    Post subject: Damage/Wound system modifications Reply with quote

Modification 2: Revised Character Damage Chart (and Stun/Brawling Damage)

Let me start by laying down some background. (SR = Damage Roll, SR = Strength Roll)...

1e Character Damage Summary
DR < SR Stunned
DR ≥ SR Wounded
DR ≥ 2xSR Incapacitated
DR ≥ 3xSR Mortally Wounded

In 1e we didn't subtract. We multiplied! Wounded was the most common result of a blaster hit. Incapacitated results were most commonly achieved through being wounded twice (even stormtroopers), and mortally wounded results were rare. The die roll result ranges are proportional to each other so there is a mathematical elegance to it, but this doesn't seem to be a very good translation of the reality of the films because characters getting hit by one blaster bolt almost always do not get back up (even armored characters such as stormtroopers), which in game terms would mean incapacitated or worse with a single shot. To address this in my 1e days, my quick fix was to continue to use the damage chart as in and just add 1D to the RAW damage stat of all blaster weapons. I did away with that when 2e came out because it became a little easier to incapacitate stormtroopers.

And please note that in 1e there was no such thing as completely 'soaking' a hit (no "no effect" result) - A hit always meant at least a stunned result.

Next is the Rules Companion Damage/Wound chart which has a compromise between between DR<SR being stunned and no effect.

1.5e Character Damage Summary
2xDR < SR No Effect
DR < SR Stun
DR ≥ SR Wound
DR ≥ 2xSR Incapacitate
DR ≥ 3xSR Mortal Wound

And lastly, here is the 2e update:

2e Character Damage Chart
DR>SR
0-3 Stunned
4-8 Wounded
9-12 Incapacitated
13-15 Mortally Wounded
16+ Killed

2e did away with multiples. R&E uses the above chart unchanged, but officially introduced the wounded twice status (I had "double wounded" as a house rule back in the days of 1e, but more on that later). D6 Space also kept this chart. In the damage/strength roll difference ranges, there are 4 results that produce stunned, 5 that produce wounded, 4 that produce incapacitated and 3 that produce mortally wounded. I wonder how they came up with those roll difference ranges? It seems somewhat arbitrary...


1D 3.5
2D 7
3D 10.5
4D 14

Above are average die roll values (with wild die 2-5). One day I thought, what if the Character Damage Chart more corresponded to these values? And what if the normal damage stunned result was moved back to the realm of DR < SR? (or rather DR≤SR)...

DR > SR
1D 1-7 W
2D 1-7 W
3D 8-10 I
4D 11-14 M
5D 15+ K

The Ds are there (and the wounded line is duplicated) just to illustrate the pattern and correlation with Mod 1. For example, if the difference between the damage roll and strength roll is higher than the average roll with 3D but up to and including the average roll for 4D, the result is mortally wounded. Yes, wounded includes a break for characters because there is no way to get directly to wounded twice by a single injury, so the wounded range covers the numerical values for both 1D and 2D (the first hit to a uninjured character with DR>SR difference being 7 would still only give him a wounded, not a wounded twice). That does somewhat interrupt the mathematical elegance of average damage/strength difference in die values corresponding to max roll difference results, but this maintains the general structure of how wounded twice already works in RAW, and on the other side of incapacitated, mortally wounded is a short-term buffer before final death. (See Mod 3 in the next post below that does away with wounded twice and mortally wounded for some characters.)

Again, yes this does make combat a little deadlier, but for PCs rolling strength to resist damage, I do always rule that wild die 1s add up normally. And I thought I would also mention here that for PCs and important NPCs being killed or mortally wounded ones that aren't saved before their time comes to die, I sometimes allow them to become conscious at the last moment to deliver some "last words" if circumstances permit and it is appropriate to the adventure. This has no effect on the outcome of the injuries other than maybe a short delay of the inevitable - It's just pure cinematic roleplaying moments, and nothing more than can be said in about five seconds. My players have really appreciated the opportunity to end their character's story arc conscious with a death scene. I've even rarely given killed mooks some last words just to deliver some information to the PCs to advance the story or heighten the drama of the adventure, such as, "You Rebel scum won't do so well when the Inquisitor arrives..." (Imperial Tech #1 dies).

OK, what about Stun Damage? As discussed elsewhere, RAW's stun damage making the normal wounded result into unconscious makes stun damage have a game mechanical advantage over normal damage when the goal is just to remove the threat from the battle, and that is a poor interpretation of the reality of the films (and other stories) because the stun setting is only used rarely when the goal is specifically not to kill an opponent.

I can see shrugging off DR ≤ SR results for stun damage, so let's keep that (- = no effect). Here's the whole damage chart including stun setting results (S = stunned, U = unconscious), in the format of the comparison/difference between DR and SR, then the normal damage wound status, then the stun damage status:

Revised Character Damage Chart

DR ≤ SR S/-

DR > SR
1-7 W/S
8-10 I/U
11-14 M/U
15+ K/U

For the actual stunned effects with normal or stun damage, I don't see any reason for them to be handled differently than in RAW (their immediate and accumulative effects). For stun damage results on the normal damage chart, stunned is no effect, wounded is stunned, and incapacitated or worse is unconscious (unconscious also working like in RAW).

This makes stun settings on blasters a non-lethal but comparable option to normal damage when needed, but still keeps normal blaster damage having enough of a tactical advantage to explain why the stun setting is not used all the time in the films. Incapacitated or worse still takes the target out of the fight, but normal damage can't be completely 'soaked' like stun damage can, and stuns wear off fast.

And this mod also uses stun damage for regular brawling to better simulate cinematic brawls. I think a Martial Arts advanced skill could make brawling damage into normal damage, but I'm not trying to develop that here.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject: Damage/Wound system modifications Reply with quote

Modification 3: Mook Damage/Wound System

Back during the days of 1e when I prophetically instituted my then-house-ruled "double wounded" wound status, I only used it for PCs and important NPCs. So for everyone else, a wound result on top of a wound sent them to incapacitated like in 1e RAW. I also didn't feel that we should bother with mortally wounded for mooks, so in my game a mortally wounded result for mooks has always meant just dead. (For mooks, specific wound status hardly matters for incapacitated or worse anyway.)

If we take out wounded twice and mortally wounded for mooks, we have my old 1e damage/wound system for mooks (except now not using the 1e chart for die roll comparison). The following depicts the mook damage chart with respect to the previous two mods.

DR ≤ SR S/-

DR > SR
1 1-7 W/S
2 8-10 I/U
3 11+ K/U

The numbers on the left re-rank the wound status levels to make the math work out right in light of the cumulative effects formulas of Mod 1 above, meaning W+W=I, W+I=K, I+W=K and I+I=K for mooks.

Since wounded twice is not on the regular damage chart, you really don't have to use a separate chart for mooks. Just remember that for mooks, mortally wounded also means killed (and if using Mod 1 any normal damage status plus any other one moves you down one below the worst status of the two).

Record keeping and combat with mooks just got easier for GMs. And while Mods 1 and 2 make combat a little deadlier for everyone, Mod 3 actually gives some advantage back to the PCs by making mooks easier to take out, comparatively.


End note of initial postings

As R&E says, combat in Star Wars is dangerous. I have always stressed to my players the importance of not getting hit in the first place!

I broke up the above three modification concepts because they can be applied individually of each other as desired (of course brawling and stun damage in Mod 2 can be handled differently as well).

Anyway, there you have it for starters. Questions? Concerns? Thoughts?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, is it still possible to get Wounded Twice for a -2D penalty?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
So, is it still possible to get Wounded Twice for a -2D penalty?

It is a lot all all once. Sorry about that. Everything was interrelated so it made sense to me to post it all in the same thread instead of three different ones.

Mod 1 still has wounded twice and all the RAW wounded statuses. Mod 1 is just "Somewhat Revised Wound Status Accumulation Rules". However Wounded characters who are wounded again are still wounded twice and still suffer the -2D penalty. That isn't being changed in Mod 1.

Mod 2 still has wounded twice and all the RAW wounded statuses. Mod 2 is a "Revised Character Damage Chart". Wounded twice is missing from the chart just like it is also missing from the RAW character damage chart. Wounded twice a unique wound status in the game because it is the only status that is not directly possible from a single injury. It is only possible from being wounded in two separate injuries. Mod 2 does nothing to change this. It only changes the die roll difference result range for a character to get wounded each time, but wounded twice remains unchanged in how it is acquired and its effect on the character.

Mod 3 does not have wounded twice (or mortally wounded), but Mod 3 applies to mooks only. A GM using Mod 3 would still have wounded twice for PCs and important NPCs. In Mod 3, when a wounded mook gets wounded again, they go straight to incapacitated (instead of wounded twice).
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha, and thanks for clearing that up. Looks like a good rule on my initial read-through.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In Mod 3, when a wounded mook gets wounded again, they go straight to incapacitated (instead of wounded twice).


That reminds me of this.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read througj this kinda fast, so forgive me if I missed it.

But I really feel like a hit should not automatically result in damage. Not every hit is powerful enough to reduce a person's fighting capacity, let alone phase them.

Also, check out youtube and look for a video of Larry Vickers training with the Spetznaz. They actuay shoot each other in the chest (wearing armor) as part of their training. The guy shot in the chest then immediately draws and returns fire simulating shooting his training 0artner in the head. But the giy shot in the chest is obvipusly not even phased. Stormtroopers are just sissys, I guess.... :p
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
But I really feel like a hit should not automatically result in damage. Not every hit is powerful e

True, but at the same time, your example is that of highly trained military professionals wearing body armor being able to brush off gunfire as part of their training. I could see an exception being made for characters wearing armor being able to brush off the stun effect of a hit, but I would explain grazes or flesh wounds as the result of ties on the To Hit roll, or those that missed by 1-2 points.

That does bring up an interesting point, though. The adrenaline rush from being in a combat situation is such that people do, on occasion, take hits without knowing it and can function normally for a short time before the injury takes effect and begins to negatively affect their ability to function. The rules do not reflect this...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I dont tbink they should... or perhaps, simar to you interpretation of a scratch being a tie on the to-hit roll, the rules for damage assume that you're in combat, so its "already built in," so-to-speak.

With regard to the spetznaz the fact is that the bullets fail to do any harm to the target at all.

Their training has nothing to do with the physics of bullet through/not through flesh or armor.

If my 3-year old punched me with all his might, it notgping to phase me, even if I let him hit me (guaranteed successful "to hit" roll). If he headbutted me in the lip, he'd open up my lip and it would bleed, but it won't reduce my fighting capacity even for a split second. So, not every "wound" needs to have an in-game efect, and .ot every hit nedds to be effective... otherwise, we end up having to give penalties to starships for one round because a jawa kicked it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a mechanic for adrenaline in the game - character points and force points. I personally don't feel D6 needs any more crunch for that.

And nothing I suggested above states all characters must take a wound from a successful hit from non-stun damage. As far as you personally being able to take a headbutt to the lip from your son without being in the slightest way phased, I did mention that brawling damage is stun damage, and stun damage does include a complete soak (no effect). And as far as your other real world example of armored people taking bullets without being phased in the slightest bit, Star Wars is not the real world. The rules I am suggesting are for the cinematic reality of a high adventure space opera game. I'm not making suggestions for "D6 Modern" or any such thing.

If you really wanted to nickle and dime everything to achieve the maximum amount of realism, you would have finer gradients such as 1 pip stun, 2 pip stun, etc. Actually, if you were really concerned about a more accurate simulation of reality in your RPG, you probably wouldn't even want to use D6 at all.

IIRC bullets have never appeared in my game. Why have bullets when you can have bright hyphens of energy that make a cool sound? I'm basing my suggestions on combat in the Star Wars universe, and most character-scale combat in the films is with blasters and lightsabers. Please point out to me in the films where someone, even armored, is shown to take a blaster hit completely un-phased? I admit, maybe I'm forgetting. We don't even see merely stunned results from blaster hits in the films, but I still have that. Of course, even in my game there are more than just blasters so yes, you could have different wound system for each weapon if you really wanted, but that is really nickel and diming it too much for me.

So yes, I see mostly blasters in the movies, and I am extrapolating from that for a general damage system. I'm ok with not every little real world possibility being represented by the system. These house rule suggestions are really only minor revisions to RAW and not adding any more complexity to what we already have. (It may not seem like that at first glance because I also went into detail about my thought process behind them). These are only tweaks.

And these are only revisions to the character wound system (character-scale characters receiving attacks). There is no scale lower than character scale. A Jawa kicking a starship would not only be brawling (which I suggest is stun damage and thus does include a 'no effect' damage result), but it is character-scale to starship-scale. Stating a starship should be "stunned" for a 'successful character kick attack' is taking what I posted to a ridiculous extreme that I do not take it to. In the films, starships are shown to get hit by blasters and not seem affected, so I do not feel any need to remove 'no effect' result for vehicles and starships.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That reminds me of this.

That's funny. It does spoof the observation that in the films, armor doesn't seem to help anyone's chances of not getting killed. In my game, hits on stormtroopers do sometimes only wound them. In 1e, it was even more common to have hit a stormtrooper twice to "I" them (incapacitated or worse).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Damage/Wound system modifications Reply with quote

Go back to the top of the thread for the thought processes behind these mods. Let me bring it altogether here and introduce some more tweaks...


Using the Brawling skill is cinematic "barroom brawling" and uses the stun damage track below. A Martial Arts advanced skill could be normal damage but I am not developing that yet.

Abbreviations for the Character Damage Chart and/or Wound Status on character sheets

D = Damage roll
R = Damage Resistance roll (strength to resist damage)
2D = 2 times the Damage roll
- = no effect
S = Stunned
W = Wounded
W2 = Severely Wounded ("wounded twice")
I = Incapacitated
I(c) = Incapacitated (conscious)
M = Mortally Wounded
M(s) = Mortally Wounded (stabilized)
K = Killed/Dead
U = Unconscious (Stun Damage)
U+A = Unconscious with Stun Aftereffect
W+U = Wounded and Unconscious
normal damage / stun damage

CHARACTER DAMAGE CHART

R≥2D . - / -
.R≥D . S / -

.D>R . Wound Status
. 1-7. . W / S
.8-10. . I / U
11-14. M / U+A
. 15+ . K / W+U

WOUND STATUS EFFECTS AND ACCUMULATION FOR PCs AND IMPORTANT NPCs

A stunned character suffers a penalty of -1D to skill and attribute rolls for the rest of the round and for the next round. A stun no longer penalizes a character after the second round, but it is still "affecting" him for half an hour unless the character rests for one minute. If a character is being "affected" from a number of stuns equal to the number before the "D" of the character's stamina, the character is knocked unconscious for 2D minutes. Another character making an Easy first aid roll can revive a character rendered unconscious (by stun accumulation) early. A character who is unconscious for at least 2 minutes is no longer being "affected" by any prior stuns.

A wounded character can take no actions for the rest of the round except for falling prone if he wishes. The character suffers a penalty of -1D to skill and attribute rolls, and his Move is reduced by 1, until he is healed (through natural rest, medpac or other medical intervention). A character who is wounded a second time is severely wounded. A wounded character who is incapacitated becomes mortally wounded. A wounded character who is mortally wounded is killed.

A severely wounded character automatically falls prone and can take no actions for the rest of the round. The character suffers a penalty of -2D to all skill and attribute rolls and his Move is reduced by 2 until he is healed. A severely wounded character who is wounded again becomes incapacitated. A severely wounded character who is incapacitated or mortally wounded is killed.

An incapacitated character falls prone. As a free action before losing consciousness, he may try to stay awake with a Moderate willpower roll. If the character succeeds the willpower roll, he may continue to act starting the next round. If he fails the roll or doesn't try, he is knocked unconscious for 10D minutes. Another character making a Moderate first aid roll can revive an unconscious incapacitated character early. A conscious incapacitated character is groggy: all actions have a -3D penalty and he can only move at half his "cautious" rate until healed. (See "Movement and Chases.") An incapacitated character who is wounded becomes mortally wounded. An incapacitated character who is incapacitated again or mortally wounded is killed.

A mortally wounded character falls prone and is unconscious. The character can't do anything until healed. The character may die - At the end of each round, roll the character's Strength. If the roll is less than the number of rounds that the character has been mortally wounded, the character dies. (See killed below.) A mortally wounded character who is wounded, incapacitated or mortally wounded again is killed. A character making a Moderate first aid roll can "stabilize" a mortally wounded character. The character is still mortally wounded but will survive if he receives successful medical intervention within one hour. (See "Healing.")

A killed character is dead and cannot be revived. As an option, the GM may allow the character to regain consciousness the round after the killed result or even at the end of the encounter, only long enough for the character to say a few final words before becoming officially deceased in the story of the adventure.

A character knocked unconscious from stun damage falls prone and is unconscious for 2D minutes. If a character already unconscious from stun damage receives any additional unconscious results, the character is unconscious for an additional 2D minutes for each. A character knocked unconscious from stun damage cannot normally be awoken early without medical intervention.

A character knocked unconscious with stun aftereffect falls prone and is unconscious for 2D minutes. Upon awaking, the character suffers a new stun damage "aftereffect" penalty of -1D to skill and attribute rolls for 2D minutes. This extended stunned result counts as one stun for "affecting" stun accumulation (as described in the description of stunned above). The "aftereffect" remains even if the character falls unconscious again and wakes up before the aftereffect period expires. If the character suffers the unconscious with stun aftereffect result again, the "aftereffects" are cumulative and each expire on their own schedule.

A wounded and unconscious character falls prone with the combination of two individual effects: wounded and unconscious.

WOUND STATUS EFFECTS AND ACCUMULATION FOR UNIMPORTANT NPCs (mooks)

Stunned and the stun damage effects are the same as above.

A wounded character falls prone and can take no actions for the rest of the round. The character suffers a penalty of -1D to skill and attribute rolls, and his Move is reduced by 1, until he is healed (through natural rest, medpac or other medical intervention). A wounded character who is wounded again becomes incapacitated. A wounded character who is incapacitated or mortally wounded is killed.

A severely wounded character* suffers a penalty of -2D to all skill and attribute rolls and his Move is reduced by 2 until he is further healed. A severely wounded character who is wounded again becomes incapacitated. A severely wounded character who is incapacitated or mortally wounded is killed.

An incapacitated character falls prone and is knocked unconscious for 1Dx10 minutes. Another character making a Moderate first aid roll can revive an unconscious incapacitated character early. A conscious incapacitated character is groggy, cannot use skills, and can only move at half his "cautious" rate until healed. An incapacitated character who is wounded, incapacitated again or mortally wounded is killed.

A mortally wounded character is killed.

A killed character is dead and cannot be revived. The GM may have the character regain consciousness the round after the killed result or even at the end of the encounter, only long enough for the character to say a few final words before becoming officially deceased in the story of the adventure.


* Unimportant NPCs can only become severely wounded by healing from the incapacitated level.


EDIT: I added " R≥2D .- / - " (no effect) to the character damage chart.
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Last edited by Whill on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:46 pm; edited 10 times in total
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Savar
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Joined: 14 Feb 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this has been a vary good read, I had misunderstood stunned. and was thinking of creating a stun damage track to mirror the physical damage tract and have the stun setting on weapons be the "normal" damage dice.

working with ogl D6 and an alternate magic system that when you cast a spell you have a chance to be stunned or knocked out.
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Tupteq
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Location: Rzeszw, Poland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Whill, thanks for summary! I like the most that it looks you didn't miss any edge case, everything is described precisely and there's no need of guessing.

Although, this system looks very deadly because number of reasons. First of all it's much easier to get a Wound (1-7 instead of 4-8 ) and slightly easier to be killed (15+ vs 16+).

Other thing is stun damage from normal attack (when D≤R) - if i understand it correctly, with this approach wookiee (STR 6D, Stamina 6D) hit six times by an ewok (STR 1D) will fall unconscious.
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