The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Orbital Combat
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Orbital Combat Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Orbital Combat Reply with quote

As part of the re-statting of the Snowspeeder, I came across a wrinkle regarding orbital combat. While they are generally atmosphere-only, speeders under WEG's description can actually operate up to low orbit, several hundred kilometers above WEG's arbitrary 50km edge-of-space. This is on top of how capital ships have orbital ranges measured in kilometers, while orbital defense weapons like the v-150 have ranges measured in SUs.

I'd like to see some form of uniform concept for orbital combat at varying altitudes, as well as some general ideas as to where ranges transition from SUs to kilometers (I.e. at what point is a ship in the same SU as a planet, and how many kilometers up it is when it does.

For discussion's sake, the real world, generally-agreed-upon boundary between space and the atmosphere for Earth is 100 km.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)


Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Planet size is the issue. But I think you have your answer: on a Terran-sized planet 100 km and under would be in meters while over 100 km would resort to SU.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
Planet size is the issue. But I think you have your answer: on a Terran-sized planet 100 km and under would be in meters while over 100 km would resort to SU.

But capital scale turbolaser have a maximum orbital range of 150 kilometers, so by that standard, they would still be using SUs, even though they are firing down at the planet's surface.

On top of that, the KDY v-150 has a RAW range of Atmosphere / Low Orbit (1 SU) / High Orbit (3 SUs). So if Low Orbit is 1 SU away from the planet, yet WEG says the Atmosphere tops out at 50 kilometers, but allows cloud cars and airspeeder to operate 200 kilometers above that, how can we tell how much further up mid Orbit or high Orbit are, and how far into them airspeeders can go?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus, per Wikipedia, Low Orbit runs from 160 kilometers all the way up to 2,000 kilometers, and any object that drops below 160 kilometers suffers rapid orbital decay. Based on the RAW, capital ships would have to drop below 150 kilometers for their turbolaser to even have a chance of hitting the ground...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for some background, per Wikipedia, Earth Orbit is broken up into the following categories:
    Low (160 km - 2,000 km)
    Medium (2,000 km up to Geosynchronous Orbit, or 35,786 kilometers)
    High (Anything above the height of a Geosynchronous Orbit and still orbiting the planet)

_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14022
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps then the issue is when WEG said airspeeders can operate outside of atmosphere (250KM) then..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarn
Force Spirit


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 698

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 100 km limit is the Kármán line. It is, quite simply, the edge after which wings won't give any lift, and is therefore often considered the boundary between the atmosphere and outer space. Obviously, the Kármán line would vary with the thickness of the planet's atmosphere, and the gravity of the planet - not the size, per se.

Repulsorlift vehicles don't use wings for lift - but might use wing-like control surfaces. Letting an airspeeder zoom around above the Kármán line doesn't seem like much of a stretch for me, but might warrant a reduction in Maneuverability if one wanted to simulate to that level.

You don't get a stable orbit below 160 km. However, if you're a Star Destroyer closing in for some gunnery practice, , you're pushing a lot of energy into maintaining your altitude. You're not really orbiting anything, you're actually flying (or powering) in the same altitude as LEO.

Besides, I would think it would be spectacular if a Star Destroyer's doing a close approach maneuver. Sort of an aerobrake maneuver on a massive scale.

If you had some time, and wanted just to push kinetic energy into a target, something like a cee fractional strike (a dumb, heavy iron rock from an asteroid belt or something similar accelerated to a significant percent of lightspeed) would likely be more effective. However, it isn't particularly Star Wars-y, and I would guess planetary shields might be able to rebound something like that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Perhaps then the issue is when WEG said airspeeders can operate outside of atmosphere (250KM) then..

Only if a realistic reason can be found for limiting them to a lower altitude. Personally, I like the idea of them being able to deploy directly from capital ships rather than relying on some form of intermediate transport.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cynanbloodbane
Commander
Commander


Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 410
Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Perhaps then the issue is when WEG said airspeeders can operate outside of atmosphere (250KM) then..

Only if a realistic reason can be found for limiting them to a lower altitude. Personally, I like the idea of them being able to deploy directly from capital ships rather than relying on some form of intermediate transport.


I know there are plenty of issues with the show, but TCW shows the troop transport air speeders launching from the Venators on a regular basis. In some cases from a very high orbit to run a blockade.

I see nothing wrong with airspeeders operating at high orbit. By the description of repulsorlift tech, they should be able to function anywhere in a gravity well. Obviously the airspeeder needs to be equipped with the proper life support systems. By that thinking, the ceiling for a repulsorlift vehicle should be just before a starship's hyperdrive will safely activate, outside the gravity well.
_________________
"Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children." The Brain
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. As near as I can figure, a straight repulsorlift drive does not just neutralize gravity but redirects it, providing both lift and thrust from the same medium. I'm reaching here, but if the ANH novel is accurate, repulsorlifts only operate in the presence of a gravity well of some kind, which to my mind implies something more than simple neutralization of gravity. For truly high performance vehicles, a repulsorlift has to be augmented by some sort of booster or other sort of auxiliary drive, as seen on multiple vehicles throughout the films.

If this supposition is correct, the primary limiting factor for altitude range on repulsorlifts would be the efficiency of the drive (as in, its ability to convert gravitational pull into both lift and thrust), which will actually drop off as the gravity field weakens.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14022
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, looking at practically all air/repulsor speeder units, most have a real low flight ceiling.. Only the cloud cars are high altitude operating..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, looking at practically all air/repulsor speeder units, most have a real low flight ceiling.. Only the cloud cars are high altitude operating..

According to who? WEG? Go back and read my previous posts; they aren't even internally consistent on airspeeder maximum altitude. Capping an anti-gravity propelled flying vehicle at a maximum of 250 meters is completely arbitrary.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14022
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Well, looking at practically all air/repulsor speeder units, most have a real low flight ceiling.. Only the cloud cars are high altitude operating..

According to who? WEG? Go back and read my previous posts; they aren't even internally consistent on airspeeder maximum altitude. Capping an anti-gravity propelled flying vehicle at a maximum of 250 meters is completely arbitrary.


And you'd rather trust a cartoon, which often is as bad on being inconsistent? At least WEG was authorized by Lucasarts..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And all the writings of Kevin J. Anderson were authorized by Lucasarts as well, so obviously the bar isn't set too high. Since when is WEG a paragon of canonical authority? We find errors in their stuff all the time here. As such, I question all sources if I find something questionable, and especially when WEG's own published information is internally inconsistent.

And if repulsorlifts function the way they are described as functioning in multiple sources, a 250 meter maximum altitude makes absolutely no sense, as it derives lift from pushing against the local gravity field, not the ground underneath it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14022
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As i said above though, not all repulsors are limited that badly, just some. Which imo makes sense.. NOT al repulsorlift vehicles should be atmospheric capable.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0