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Resurgent-class Battlecruiser
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It seemed pretty imperative that the escaped TIE used by Poe and Finn in TFA be re-captured. Isn't it General Hux that ordered the pulse cannons be used?

The scenes on the bridge seemed like they wanted the TIE back at all costs.

But, the scenes outside the ship, focusing on the TIE, had me thinking, "Why don't they open up with all they've got?"

Poe even says something to the effect of how they'll never get away unless they take out some of the batteries. Then they take out two--two friggin' turrets--and Poe thinks they're home free.

It doesn't make a lot of sense upon closer examination.

You need an even closer examination.

TFA wrote:
KYLO REN: It's in a droid. A BB unit.

GENERAL HUX: Well then. If it's on Jakku, we'll soon have it.

KYLO REN: I leave that to you.
...
STAR DESTROYER TECHNICIAN: We have an unsanctioned departure from bay two.

FIRST ORDER COLONEL: Alert General Hux and stop that fighter!
...
POE: All right, we gotta take out as many cannons as we can or we're not gonna get very far!
...
LIEUTENANT MITAKA: Sir, they've taken out our turbolasers.

GENERAL HUX: Use the ventral cannons.

LIEUTENANT MITAKA: Yes, sir. Bringing them online.
...
LIEUTENANT MITAKA: Sir. Ventral cannons hot.

GENERAL HUX: Fire.

POE: One's coming towards you. My right, your left. Do you see it?
...
GENERAL HUX: They were going back for the droid. Send a squad to the wreckage.

It is extremely clear in the film that the First Order just wanted the map to Skywalker and thus the droid carrying it. They had already decided to look for the droid on the planet before Poe and Finn escaped, and there was clearly no need to capture the TIE Fighter or they would have used tractor beams. They clearly wanted to blow them out of the sky.

Poe probably wouldn't say "as many as cannons as we can" if there were only two. And the space shots only showed two turbolaser cannons being destroyed, but that doesn't meant that there weren't more destroyed off camera (perhaps during cockpit or bridge shots). There is such a thing editing choices to create the optimal cinematic experience for the viewers. (In other worlds, do we really need to see each and every turbolaser cannon destroyed?) And Poe may have been mostly concerned with cannons in the fire arc they were escaping through.

The star destroyer did open up with everything they've got - They don't only need space shots to show that to us. During the cockpit shots, there are many flashes of green light on the Poe and Finn while they are talking (and some of them accompanied by a blast sound effect). Each green flash is a near miss from the star destroyer. And sometimes you can even see green blasts zip through the view of the portal behind Poe and Finn. Poe probably wouldn't be the best pilot in the Resistance without being good at evasion.

Although it is not clear in the film what kind of weapon the final weapon used against the heroes was, FYI there is no reference in the film to them being "pulse cannons". The First Order called them "ventral cannons" and Poe only referred to a missile shot from them as "one". While it does seem more natural for missiles to be shot from "launchers", cannons originally shot cannon balls so maybe the term "cannons" can also be used for something that shoots missiles. And the effect used for proton torpedoes in ANH just looks like balls of light, but they are still called "torpedoes."
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks
Btw here is the link
http://starwarsrp.net/topic/102421-resurgent-class-star-destroyer/
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that the projectiles shot from the ventral cannons can change their trajectory and can be shot down seems to be irrefutable evidence that these ventral cannons fire missiles/torpedoes of some sort.

You can't shoot down lasers, after all. (Well, not unless you're watching some sort of sci-fi parody, at any rate. Razz )
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
The fact that the projectiles shot from the ventral cannons can change their trajectory and can be shot down seems to be irrefutable evidence that these ventral cannons fire missiles/torpedoes of some sort.

I concur.

Sutehp wrote:
You can't shoot down lasers, after all.

No, but multiple superlaser beams can converge in space and change direction.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I just watched again the Poe/Finn escape scene from TFA. The mag pulse that I'm thinking of is something that Poe tells Finn just as they get in the TIE. Poe instructs Finn how to switch between weapon types, and mag pulse is one of them.

Once they get out of the docking bay, Poe says, "Alright, we've gotta take out as many of these canons as we can or we're not going to get very far." Then, they proceed to take out two turrets. Only two. These are triple laser turrets. These are near what I think is the ventral aft of the ship. Then off screen, Poe must double back towards the ship as he flies between the two halves of the ship, then out near the bow.

Now, they're being shot at as they race away from the Finalizer, but there is a cut to the bridge Hux is told, "Sir, they've taken out our turbo lasers."

I guess we can assume here that, contrary to what is seems when viewing the film, Poe and Finn took some time blowing out a large number of the turbo lasers?

One fighter--swarming around the ship, taking out all the turbo laser turrets that, I guess, cover the direction back to the planet?

If this is true, then why didn't the Finalizer launch more TIEs to take on Poe?

If this is true, what does that say about single fighter defense, star destroyer vs. one TIE?

If this is not true, then why is Hux told that Poe took out the turbo lasers--to which Hux orders that the ventral canons be used?
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could very well be that Hux was pulling his/the Finalizer's punches in order to let Poe and Finn get back to Jakku and let them lead his men to BB-8. Ren did insist on getting the map from BB-8 intact, and even as much as Ren and Hux were butting heads and Hux might have been disinclined to completely obey Ren, Hux did at least make a good faith effort for a time to retrieve BB-8 instead of destroying him. Hux did send a squad down to the wreckage of the crashed TIE instead of ordering a strafing run right away, after all. Then Finn and BB-8 were spotted by the stormtroopers who then called in an airstrike...

Yeah, by the time the First Order found the (submerged) wreck of the TIE, Hux may have said "screw it" about retrieving BB-8 and told his men to kill Finn and BB-8. He may have tried to accommodate Ren for a while, but then decided that he answers to Snoke, not Ren, and then said to his men, "You know what? Screw my earlier orders to retrieve the droid. If you see it and FN-2187, kill 'em both."

That could explain why Hux didn't bother to scramble TIEs at the start, but then allowed his men to go all out once they got to Jakku's surface.

Yes, this all happened offscreen if it happened at all, but it's plausible.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Once they get out of the docking bay, Poe says, "Alright, we've gotta take out as many of these canons as we can or we're not going to get very far." Then, they proceed to take out two turrets. Only two. These are triple laser turrets. These are near what I think is the ventral aft of the ship. Then off screen, Poe must double back towards the ship as he flies between the two halves of the ship, then out near the bow.

Now, they're being shot at as they race away from the Finalizer, but there is a cut to the bridge Hux is told, "Sir, they've taken out our turbo lasers."

I guess we can assume here that, contrary to what is seems when viewing the film, Poe and Finn took some time blowing out a large number of the turbo lasers?

One fighter--swarming around the ship, taking out all the turbo laser turrets that, I guess, cover the direction back to the planet?

If this is true, then why didn't the Finalizer launch more TIEs to take on Poe?

If this is true, what does that say about single fighter defense, star destroyer vs. one TIE?

If this is not true, then why is Hux told that Poe took out the turbo lasers--to which Hux orders that the ventral canons be used?

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=171705#171705

See my post above where I address most of your concerns. One reason TIEs may not have been launched in pursuit is because Finn destroyed the starfighter control tower in the TIE hanger. They also may not have thought it was needed because, as I pointed out above, it was raining green blaster fire on the TIE fighter. This may have been from a third weapon type other than the turbolaser cannons (and the ventral missile-shooting cannons). Or maybe they didn't actually take out all of the turbolasers, just a significant amount of them in the fire arcs that could be brought to bear on the TIE fighter.

It almost seems like you don't want it to make sense.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW turbolasers were established as not being effective against starfighters in ANH so that part of it is not a problem as far as I'm concerned. Turbolasers are, I take it, intended for blowing up large heavy targets. This was a gap in Imperial doctrine.

As to why the Empire/First Order never addressed this issue in the kit of their capital ships in the intervening years could either be stubbornness (it happens) or just satisfaction in heavy batteries backed up by TIEs.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It almost seems like you don't want it to make sense.


No, I do want it to make sense.

And, I was looking for that other thread--I wanted to post there.

I don't really think you addressed most of what I brought up, too.

You basically say that a lot of the shooting happens off camera. OK, let's say that happens. It still doesn't make sense that a single TIE blew up all or most of the Finalizer's turbo laser turrets, to where, the only thing left for the First Order to use was the ventral canons.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Whill wrote:
It almost seems like you don't want it to make sense.


No, I do want it to make sense.

And, I was looking for that other thread--I wanted to post there.

I don't really think you addressed most of what I brought up, too.

You basically say that a lot of the shooting happens off camera. OK, let's say that happens. It still doesn't make sense that a single TIE blew up all or most of the Finalizer's turbo laser turrets, to where, the only thing left for the First Order to use was the ventral canons.



If you want it to make sense why are you determined to ignore firing arcs?

It's a simple fact that dorsal mounted weapons can't fire thru the ship they are mounted on to hit targets in the ventral fire arc.

For that same reason port mounted weapons can't fire thru the ships superstructure on starboard targets, and forward mounted weapons can't fire to the rear.

That means there is only a fraction of weapons that need to be disabled. Those being the handful facing their escape vector.

And no star destroyer can maneuver quickly enough to bring undamaged weapons to bear on an escaping starfighter.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
If you want it to make sense why are you determined to ignore firing arcs?


We know that the TIE went off from the Finalizer on the ventral bow arc.

How many turbo laser turrets do you propose that Poe and Finn destroyed on the star destroyer?

Using the numbers in the OP, and just going with the "right" firing arc, Poe would have to destroy 16 Double laser turrets, 15 laser turrets, and 9 Heavy laser turrets.

You're claiming that Poe and Finn destroyed 40 turrets on the Finalizer before zooming off towards Jakku?

And, during that time, the Finalizer didn't launch any other TIEs to protect itself?
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Resurgent-class Battlecruiser Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:

Weapons:
64 Double Turbolaser Cannons
-- Fire Arc: 16 front, 16 left, 16 right, 16 back
-- Crew: 1
-- Skill: Capital ship gunnery
-- Scale: Starfighter
-- Fire Control: 3D
-- Space Range: 3-15/35/75
-- Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
-- Damage: 6D
55 Turbolaser Batteries
-- Fire Arc: 25 front, 15 left, 15 right
-- Crew: 1 (15), 2 (15)
-- Skill: Capital ship gunnery
-- Fire Control: 4D
-- Space Range: 3-15/36/75
-- Atmosphere Range: 6-15/72/150km
-- Damage: 6D


Why do the double laser batteries and the (single?) turbolaser batteries do the same damage?
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
ForbinProject wrote:
If you want it to make sense why are you determined to ignore firing arcs?


We know that the TIE went off from the Finalizer on the ventral bow arc.

How many turbo laser turrets do you propose that Poe and Finn destroyed on the star destroyer?

Using the numbers in the OP, and just going with the "right" firing arc, Poe would have to destroy 16 Double laser turrets, 15 laser turrets, and 9 Heavy laser turrets.

You're claiming that Poe and Finn destroyed 40 turrets on the Finalizer before zooming off towards Jakku?



Nope. I'm saying they didn't need to damage or destroy "all" the turbo lasers on the ship. This was your statement I was responding to.

Quote:
It still doesn't make sense that a single TIE blew up all or most of the Finalizer's turbo laser turrets, to where, the only thing left for the First Order to use was the ventral canons.


And where do you get 40 from? Nowhere does it say that all the forward firing turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the ship. If they were there would be no turbo lasers front top facing of the star destroyer.

Assuming the turbo lasers are split evenly between ventral and dorsal. So using D6 stats they were facing.

8 Double Turbolaser Cannons
14.5 Turbolaser Batteries
4.5 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons

That's 27 turbolasers. And none of them could target and fire on the tie fighter until it got to at least a range of 3-5 from the star destroyer. They could try but they'd most likely miss.

However there doesn't seem to even be that many weapons on the firing arc they fled on. And from what I've picked up reading star wars novels is that on star destroyers most weapons are mounted on the dorsal side of the star destroyers because standard Imperial tactics are to turn the dorsal side towards enemy ships while starfighters launch from the ventral shadow, form up in squadrons, then loop around to begin attack runs.

No the only threat to the tie fighter was the anti-starfighter ion cannons in the front ventral firing arc. The turbo lasers were easy pickings.

I'm assuming the two three barrel turrets shown being destroyed were 2 of the turbolaser batteries.

Even the concussion missiles can't target ship closer than a range of 2, and it was the missile launchers that shot them down once they were far enough away.

Quote:
And, during that time, the Finalizer didn't launch any other TIEs to protect itself?


Pilots aren't required to sit in their fighters 24/7. Even the pilots that are on standby duty ready to scramble will take a few minutes to get to their fighters and launch in the chaos left behind by Finn and Poe.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
And where do you get 40 from? Nowhere does it say that all the forward firing turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the ship. If they were there would be no turbo lasers front top facing of the star destroyer.


He got the stats from Star Wars Chaos, which I think is a faction based pBp sort of game. Its not D6 for sure and loosely called an RPG. Then again cosplaysers seem to think what they are doing is roleplaying as well.

Quote:
1,500+ Turbolasers AND ion cannons (AND refers to "in addition to.." not "equal number of.."; The Force Awakens secret Inside the Secret Academy)
? Point-defense turrets (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Point-defense missile emplacements (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Tractor beam projectors (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)

2 starfighter wings (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
144 starfighters: TIE/fo and TIE/sf (Episode VII: The Force Awakens)

100 Atmospheric Assault Landers (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Ground vehicles (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
1 Prefabricated ground base (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)

? represents this type of armament is installed, but not how many.


This is the only verifiable information on armament and complement of the ship. I have a very hard time with 1,500 turbolasers on a ship x1.82 as big as a ISD II. I suppose this could be total number of turrets and does not take in effect things like double and quads. Again, I am open to suggestions, but this ship is just plain stupid in comparison to anything before it in the SWU.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
ForbinProject wrote:
And where do you get 40 from? Nowhere does it say that all the forward firing turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the ship. If they were there would be no turbo lasers front top facing of the star destroyer.


He got the stats from Star Wars Chaos, which I think is a faction based pBp sort of game. Its not D6 for sure and loosely called an RPG. Then again cosplaysers seem to think what they are doing is roleplaying as well.

Quote:
1,500+ Turbolasers AND ion cannons (AND refers to "in addition to.." not "equal number of.."; The Force Awakens secret Inside the Secret Academy)
? Point-defense turrets (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Point-defense missile emplacements (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Tractor beam projectors (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)

2 starfighter wings (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
144 starfighters: TIE/fo and TIE/sf (Episode VII: The Force Awakens)

100 Atmospheric Assault Landers (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Ground vehicles (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
1 Prefabricated ground base (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)

? represents this type of armament is installed, but not how many.


This is the only verifiable information on armament and complement of the ship. I have a very hard time with 1,500 turbolasers on a ship x1.82 as big as a ISD II. I suppose this could be total number of turrets and does not take in effect things like double and quads. Again, I am open to suggestions, but this ship is just plain stupid in comparison to anything before it in the SWU.



Yeah I think that 1500 includes every single weapon not just turbolasers and ion cannons.

No idea what the right size should be, Or if the size is right what the right number of weapons should be.
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