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Endwyn Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 481
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Sentience isn't about writing poems and questioning your existance. That's what inteligence is for. Sentience is about being self aware and having enough mental faculties to be capable of learning, realization, and problem solving. Self aware is the only thing on that list that eliminates most from achieving sentient status.
As for the rancors, whether you like it or not, the author made the Rancors from Dathomir sentient. On the lowest levels of sentience, yes....but sentient none the less. _________________ Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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Ray Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 1743 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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A Poem, By Fluffy (As translated by Mitch Handerson, The Poor Sod That Has To Look After Fluffy. Rougher Translations in quotes.):
Why do I be?
Why does "ship" (Lit: Cave of Metal) fly?
Why do people hurt I?
Why do "blasters" (Lit: Fire Sticks) spit everywhere when I am here?
Why I not have another Bantha?
Am I bad for want to know these things?
Do I do wrong for knowing?
I say no.
And go get Bantha anyhow. |
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Endwyn Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 481
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Nice poem Fluffy, I'll give you two Banthas! _________________ Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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Hellcat Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 11921 Location: New England
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:02 am Post subject: |
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So what kind of skill would writing poems fit under. I know it would have to be a Knowledge skill, and possibly a scholar specilization. But I think after that lovely little poem it's clear Fluffy's a poet who just doesn't know it. _________________ FLUFFY for President!!!!
Wanted Poster |
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Boomer Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 688 Location: Terra Sol
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Endwyn wrote: | Sentience isn't about writing poems and questioning your existance. That's what inteligence is for. Sentience is about being self aware and having enough mental faculties to be capable of learning, realization, and problem solving. Self aware is the only thing on that list that eliminates most from achieving sentient status.
As for the rancors, whether you like it or not, the author made the Rancors from Dathomir sentient. On the lowest levels of sentience, yes....but sentient none the less. |
First, the author never said they were sentient, so that is out the window.
Second... you just named skills dogs and gorillas have as being what seperates a sentient from an animal.
If you want a skill that seperates, it has to be something a sentient can do and an animal cannot, or vice-versa.
Learning, being self aware, problem solving. Mice do that in mazes 24/7. Are you trying to say the book Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy is right and mice are the most intelligent sentience on the planet?
How about this, the fact we can have this conversation and question sentience, is one thing that makes us sentient. _________________ My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette! |
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Soniv Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 210
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:02 am Post subject: |
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But what is to say that mice, dolphins, dogs, and gorillas are not having conversations right now? They squeak, chitter, bark, and grunt. Who is to say that is not a language? Personally, I think what separates sentience from non-sentience is the use and creation of technology. By these rules, apes and other primates are beginning to develop sentience, and humans are most definetly sentient. As for Rancors..hm. Do they make use of technology in any form in the novel? If so, I'd call them sentient. |
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Boomer Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 688 Location: Terra Sol
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Soniv wrote: | But what is to say that mice, dolphins, dogs, and gorillas are not having conversations right now? They squeak, chitter, bark, and grunt. Who is to say that is not a language? Personally, I think what separates sentience from non-sentience is the use and creation of technology. By these rules, apes and other primates are beginning to develop sentience, and humans are most definetly sentient. As for Rancors..hm. Do they make use of technology in any form in the novel? If so, I'd call them sentient. |
I didn;t say they couldn't speak! It is the subject matter that makes the diffrence. _________________ My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette! |
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Endwyn Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 481
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Like my post said, Self-awareness is the trait that keeps animals from being considered sentient, however there is speculation about some primates and if they have crossed this threshhold. Here are the 4 required elements for sentience:
Quote: | (1) The ability to observe and respond to one's environment. This requires sensory perceptions and the ability to react to those perceptions. This is a pretty basic property of life, although the extent to which various creatures can do it varies widely.
(2) Intelligence. *"The ability to learn and understand, the ability to cope with a new situation" Many animals, including primates, pigs, and dolphins, have been shown to have very high intelligence.
(3) Consciousness. To be *"able to feel and think". This is a tricky one. There is some very strong evidence out there indicating that certain species of animals are capable of both emotion and rational thought, but the argument hasn't yet reached final resolution.
(4) Self-awareness. In the animal debate, this is a big deal. Does the animal have awareness of itself? There are a zillion different experiments out there to test this, and they all seem to rely on a different idea of what proves self-awareness. For example, some definitions require that an animal understand how its own movements affect the image in a mirror. Some depend on an animal's ability to lie. Some even rely on the fact that carnivorous animals don't try to eat their own flesh. In the end, this is still a very nebulous issue, and the answers aren't clear. |
1. The dathomir rancor responds to it's enviroment. Even animals do this.
2. The dathomir rancor does have intelegence (granted not much, but does have some.)
3. The dathomir rancor can think, has emotions, and reacts to them. Emotions could be argued, but Tosh mourned the loss of her children, sought revenge, ect.
4. Self Awareness is the hard one. Tosh however has made a point of passing on their history to her children. This shows her awareness of her actions in refrence to a larger scheme, the ability to realize and understand other's roles in that same tapestry.
Most importantly of all:
Cracken's Threat Dossier: Pg 52 wrote: | Modern Dathomirian rancors possess a rudimentory form of "racial memory." These rancors are now able to understand and relate to one another several forms of abstract thought. A talented few, such as Tosh, can even communicate these ideas to other sentients. This dramatic upsurge in intelligence has forced xenobiologists to upgrade the Dathomir rancor in status, from savage, mindless creatures to sentient beings (albeit fairly dull-witted sentients). |
_________________ Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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Ray Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 1743 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:31 am Post subject: |
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What do you think of all this talk of your people, Fluffy?
"BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAP!!!"
Phew. You really need a breath mint! |
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Endwyn Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 481
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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I'm on fluffy's side. (Gives fluffy another bantha.) _________________ Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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Boomer Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 688 Location: Terra Sol
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Well if they are capapble of abstract thought, like undersating the word "the", doing multiplication, and having conversations like this, than they are sentient.
But that threat dossier, is that rule-book? Is that from the original novel.
I don;t think it is. It is expanded material for something that is expanded and not canon in the first place.
Plus, those qualities for sentience you listed. Even PLANTS demonstrate those four qualities. Are you telling me the blades of grass outside, because they sense, feel, respond, communicate through chemical signals. The only thing we don;t see grass do is learn.
But trees learn, they can eventually recognize kinds of insects, deal with ones harmful to them by trying to discourage wood boring through chemicals, and warning nearby trees with chemicals. Are you tell me the two oaks outside of my house, because of the way they change when bugs come along, that they are sentient?
Your definition of sentience is bad, very bad. Your argument is sensless, unclear, and somewhat disgusting as you have lowered the bar for sentience to something that MOSS can technically acheive through it's ability to grow and change based upon environment and problems. I doubt we could ever agree on this subject. I see no path of logic being followed by you.
And Ray, teach fluffy how to cook bantha so he doesn't have too many health (and breath) problems. _________________ My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette! |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14034 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Soniv wrote: | But what is to say that mice, dolphins, dogs, and gorillas are not having conversations right now? They squeak, chitter, bark, and grunt. Who is to say that is not a language? Personally, I think what separates sentience from non-sentience is the use and creation of technology. By these rules, apes and other primates are beginning to develop sentience, and humans are most definetly sentient. As for Rancors..hm. Do they make use of technology in any form in the novel? If so, I'd call them sentient. |
Actually as one of my friends likes to argue, maybe they are more sentient than we know. Why.?? Cause we are the ones defining what and who is sentient. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Gry Sarth Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 5304 Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Boomer, the Threat Dossier is an official Expanded Universe creation, just as cannon as the novels it's based on. If your perception of the "real star wars universe" is limited to the films (the absolute cannon), then you're going to have trouble dealing with this forum. The RPG is by essence an Expanded Universe creation, we live and breathe in the EU.
Medpacks? EU. Grenades? EU. Victory Star Destroyers? EU. Bothawui? EU. Sentient Dathomirian Rancors? EU. |
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Ray Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 1743 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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OK Fluffy, this is how we cook Bantha:
Take one Bantha, now, pull out your flamethrower... We're going to have to modify the grips so your hands will fit... And then lightly baste the Batha with the special "Cooking Jelly" that you can buy at any "Kitchen Hutt".
Now, there's a cooked Bantha for you, what do you think?
"Yuck. Taste like out in sun too long. Prefer original way. Seasoning nice, however, but more nutmeg."
Oh, and Gry is right. We work *A LOT* with EU. And even homebrew. I mean, just take a look at all the Speeders I wrote up while bored! |
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Endwyn Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 481
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Gry for getting to the EU arguement before I could, and explaning it's source.
Boomer: For the last time, the one that seperates out the moss, and the plants, and most of the animal kingdom is #4 - self awareness. I included the entire piece of info because I didn't want to edit out the scientific debate over what constitutes self awareness, because it is a debate being raged in their community. To be honest I have always seen mirror tests be used for this type of thing. In a mirror test they look for 1. recognition that you are the reflection in the mirror, 2. that you understand how to manipulate your enviroment by using the mirror because you understand the reflection. (like giving a monkey a comb and it gromming himself because he know's the image is him and how to manipulate the tool in the real world using the mirror image.).
For your plants, where is their brain or though center? How are they thinking? adapting to your enviroment through adaptation, ect is not a demonstration of thought - it's reaction to outside stimuli. Single celled organisms have evolved through time, but they don't "think", they react to their enviroment and needs.
If your not happy with either the scientific definition of sentience or Cracken's threat dossier, either take it up with the entire scientific community or WEG. _________________ Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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