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Star Galleon's Detachable Cargo Bay
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Section vented to vacuum. Want to keep prisoners secure? Make sure they know that busting out of their cells dumps them into vacuum.

What prisoners? This is a Star Galleon, not a prison barge. The idea is defenses to keep people from getting in, not keep them from getting out.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a detachable cargo hold, you might have specialized cargo holds akin to the Universal Energy Cage at the bottom of an Imperial Dungeon Ship.

Need to transport some VIP in complete isolation? Specialized cargo hold. Need to transport some special prisoners that have particular atmospheric or gravity requirements? Specialized cargo hold. Need to transport valuables, relics, or whatever without labor droids and so on handling them at all? Specialized cargo hold. And so on and so forth.

Particularly as it seems that detaching the cargo hold is non-destructive for the Star Galleon - at least, judging from the WEG illustration, I don't see any blasting off of hull sections or anything.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Section vented to vacuum. Want to keep prisoners secure? Make sure they know that busting out of their cells dumps them into vacuum.


While I don't think the Empire would have any moral problem with this (ha!) and while it sounds like a very formidable anti-boarder function in theory, I can also see it backfiring on the defenders if any slicers on the side of the boarders hack into the system and use it on the Galleon's crew instead.

Just food for thought.

CRMcNeill wrote:
What prisoners? This is a Star Galleon, not a prison barge. The idea is defenses to keep people from getting in, not keep them from getting out.


Also this.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
If you have a detachable cargo hold, you might have specialized cargo holds akin to the Universal Energy Cage at the bottom of an Imperial Dungeon Ship.

Need to transport some VIP in complete isolation? Specialized cargo hold. Need to transport some special prisoners that have particular atmospheric or gravity requirements? Specialized cargo hold. Need to transport valuables, relics, or whatever without labor droids and so on handling them at all? Specialized cargo hold. And so on and so forth.

Particularly as it seems that detaching the cargo hold is non-destructive for the Star Galleon - at least, judging from the WEG illustration, I don't see any blasting off of hull sections or anything.

I notice you have focused entirely on the cargo hold, rather than the outer defenses, which I stated quite clearly was the only thing I was interested in. I already have working stats for the detachable cargo bay, but I want to include the Random Encounter table to help GMs build boarding action adventures.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my previous post, I did focus entirely on the detachable cargo hold. Mostly because I feel that would be an interesting way to expand on the Star Galleon's mission profile. In particular, I like the idea of a luxury apartment-style cargo hold, where a VIP of some sort can refuse to interact with the plebeian crew of some Star Galleon. I blame that particular idea on the TV show Blacklist's luxurious standard containers. Furthermore, filling a special cargo hold with Force relics - or perhaps an entire temple of some Force-using cult or other holds a certain charm for me.

To expand on my previous suggestions of reconfigurable holds, electrified deck plates, and grav plates with a bounce function, I would also suggest internally deployed Conner-style electronets. Additionally, you might use reconfigurable holds to actually remove cover - the boarders are fighting down a corridor, but suddenly the walls of the corridor folds down, and a few strategically placed area of effect weapons go off. Like the aforementioned Conner-style nets.

Or even crushing traps, Death Star trash compactor style, where a likely corridor can squish closed with little warning. Janitor droids with high pressure hoses and little squeamishness programmed would also likely be a requirement.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crushing traps on a spaceship? A space station, sure, but a starship as relatively small as a Star Galleon?

Hell, why not just put Spikes of Doom in the walls like in that spike trap room in Krull so that the boarders are doomed...DOOMED...DOOOOMED no matter what happens?

Crushing traps in the corridors of a starship...I mean, really. What is this, Tomb of Horrors IN SPACE? Rolling Eyes Confused
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
While I don't think the Empire would have any moral problem with this (ha!) and while it sounds like a very formidable anti-boarder function in theory, I can also see it backfiring on the defenders if any slicers on the side of the boarders hack into the system and use it on the Galleon's crew instead.

Just food for thought.


If I was designing the Star Galleon and under the impression that the ships are going to be repelling hostile boarders all the electronic security features are going to be non-networked. Each compartment will have its own isolated security system as well as manual overrides. Furthermore boarders will have to get thru the compartment and all the defenses and a locked bulkhead/hatch first before they get to any controls.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Crushing traps on a spaceship? A space station, sure, but a starship as relatively small as a Star Galleon?

Hell, why not just put Spikes of Doom in the walls like in that spike trap room in Krull so that the boarders are doomed...DOOMED...DOOOOMED no matter what happens?

Crushing traps in the corridors of a starship...I mean, really. What is this, Tomb of Horrors IN SPACE? Rolling Eyes Confused


All starships have artificial gravity in the SWU except for the most primitive of ships, so yes you can easily increase the gravity of any given compartment to the point it will kill boarders.

You can also have pressor beams mounted in the deck, bulkheads, and overhead to crush people. Maybe even rig tractor beams to rip boarders apart.

You could even rig up a concealed laser grid ala Resident Evil to reduce boarders into meat cubes.


Oh and the spikes can easily be duplicated with the same tech that is used to make lightsabers. That's right <laser> LIGHT-SPIKES!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
In my previous post, I did focus entirely on the detachable cargo hold. Mostly because I feel that would be an interesting way to expand on the Star Galleon's mission profile. In particular, I like the idea of a luxury apartment-style cargo hold, where a VIP of some sort can refuse to interact with the plebeian crew of some Star Galleon. I blame that particular idea on the TV show Blacklist's luxurious standard containers. Furthermore, filling a special cargo hold with Force relics - or perhaps an entire temple of some Force-using cult or other holds a certain charm for me.

I think most of these would either be exceptionally rare (the Star Galleon's low speed makes it an unattractive option for a VIP transport) or already part of the stock Star Galleon's mission (carrying high value cargo). My focus here is revamping the Star Galleon's official stats as part of my larger project to revamp WEG stats in general, so for the purposes of this stat, I'm focusing specifically on aspects of the Star Galleon that are mentioned in the WEG description, which does not include customized cargo bays.

Quote:
To expand on my previous suggestions of reconfigurable holds, electrified deck plates, and grav plates with a bounce function, I would also suggest internally deployed Conner-style electronets. Additionally, you might use reconfigurable holds to actually remove cover - the boarders are fighting down a corridor, but suddenly the walls of the corridor folds down, and a few strategically placed area of effect weapons go off. Like the aforementioned Conner-style nets.

For the sake of clarity, I think we should distinguish between the hold (where the cargo is stored, the ultimate objective of any boarding party) and the corridors leading to it, which will be where the encounter tables come into play.

I like the idea of gravity plates and Conner Nets in combination with an ambush or automated weapons, immobilizing characters to make them easier targets.

As far as modular panels for cover, I can see a couple other possibilities, providing defenders with cover as they withdraw down a corridor, then retracting into the walls to deny the same cover to the attackers; or springing open in the middle of the boarding party, cutting the group in two, then attacking both separately.

Quote:
Or even crushing traps, Death Star trash compactor style, where a likely corridor can squish closed with little warning. Janitor droids with high pressure hoses and little squeamishness programmed would also likely be a requirement.

For whatever reason, I'm not feeling this one so much. I'll keep it in mind.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
If I was designing the Star Galleon and under the impression that the ships are going to be repelling hostile boarders all the electronic security features are going to be non-networked. Each compartment will have its own isolated security system as well as manual overrides. Furthermore boarders will have to get thru the compartment and all the defenses and a locked bulkhead/hatch first before they get to any controls.

IMO, this is exactly why it would have centralized and networked controls, all hardwired to be controlled​ from a central point; either the ship's bridge or a security annex. Combined with onboard surveillance, it would serve as a C&C station to both limit the movement of the boarders and coordinate counter-boarding action by the ship's own troops (bonuses to Command and Tactics).

There is also the fact that the defenders can't guarantee the boarders will enter through a specific point. Yes, airlocks have their advantages, but will be heavily defended as well. An enterprising group of boarders might choose to cut through the hull, thus bypassing the first line of defense and potentially gaining immediate access to a control panel. There is also the possibility of a group of defenders being overrun before they can lock down the controls.

Having a heavily defended central control also gives the PCs an objective to take so as to gain control of the ship and either shut down the onboard defenses or turn them to their own use.

Of course, a deadman's switch controlling the ejection mechanism for the cargo bay would not be outside the realm of possibility...
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
There is also the fact that the defenders can't guarantee the boarders will enter through a specific point. Yes, airlocks have their advantages, but will be heavily defended as well. An enterprising group of boarders might choose to cut through the hull, thus bypassing the first line of defense and potentially gaining immediate access to a control panel. There is also the possibility of a group of defenders being overrun before they can lock down the controls.


And that's exactly why I would have the security for each compartment isolated and non-networked. Slicers wouldn't be able to access any other security system than the compartment they breached from an unexpected access point.

And to my understanding the interior deck plans of Star Galleons were designed so defenders in any compartment could be locked down and turned into a fortress bristling with anti-intruder defenses that could be defended every step of the way.

IMHO that means those compartments couldn't be hacked or overridden from the outside or by a central location.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
And that's exactly why I would have the security for each compartment isolated and non-networked. Slicers wouldn't be able to access any other security system than the compartment they breached from an unexpected access point.

But that in turn makes it so that the Galleon's crew be locked out of sections of their own ship if the intruders manage to take over the local controls.

Quote:
And to my understanding the interior deck plans of Star Galleons were designed so defenders in any compartment could be locked down and turned into a fortress bristling with anti-intruder defenses that could be defended every step of the way.

That sounds more like a combination of the Star Galleon's internal defenses with the compartmentalization of the Carrack. The internal defenses of the Star Galleon are, IMO, designed to defend critical portions of the ship's interior, such as the cargo bay, bridge and main engineering, which will be the primary objectives of any boarding party. It does no good to be able to turn the men's shower into a fortress bristling with anti-intruder defenses if the main bridge is attacked. The ship's vitals are what's important.

Quote:
IMHO that means those compartments couldn't be hacked or overridden from the outside or by a central location.

I'm curious why "vulnerable to slicing" automatically implies that it would be easy, as though a slicer in a boarding party could take over the entire ship in a matter of seconds simply by plugging his datapad into a power socket in a broom closet somewhere. I find it more likely that a ship like this would have dedicated slicer droids or even an onboard computer security specialist to counter attempts to break into the system, especially in the event of an overt attack. The ability to better coordinate their own forces to counter the attackers would be be worth the risk.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But that in turn makes it so that the Galleon's crew be locked out of sections of their own ship if the intruders manage to take over the local controls.


There will be a handful of locations where that can happen. Compartments with 2 or more exterior bulkheads for example. But most compartments have at least 2 exits. For example the crew berths on my ship (USS Austin) had 5 exits. 1 fwd, 1 aft, 1 starboard, 1 up, and 1 below.

Deck plans are really important if this is going to be gamed out. Ships are three dimensional with many opportunities to move in every direction.

Quote:
That sounds more like a combination of the Star Galleon's internal defenses with the compartmentalization of the Carrack. The internal defenses of the Star Galleon are, IMO, designed to defend critical portions of the ship's interior, such as the cargo bay, bridge and main engineering, which will be the primary objectives of any boarding party. It does no good to be able to turn the men's shower into a fortress bristling with anti-intruder defenses if the main bridge is attacked. The ship's vitals are what's important.


I prefer referring to the re-imagined BSG. Some systems are ship wide but others like the Bridge, Engineering, and other critical areas have individual security systems that allow those areas to be locked down.

BSG ship security is a more realistic portrayal of how security is set up in the real Navies.


Quote:
I'm curious why "vulnerable to slicing" automatically implies that it would be easy, as though a slicer in a boarding party could take over the entire ship in a matter of seconds simply by plugging his datapad into a power socket in a broom closet somewhere.


It's an over-used sci-fi trope. Somebody hacks the system and shuts everything down.

Quote:
I find it more likely that a ship like this would have dedicated slicer droids or even an onboard computer security specialist to counter attempts to break into the system, especially in the event of an overt attack. The ability to better coordinate their own forces to counter the attackers would be be worth the risk.


I agree.

The main reason warships have independent non-networked systems is battle damage. In combat it's too easy to lose control of all systems if everything was on one system. Separate systems minimizes the chances of losing multiple systems. It's also why there are Auxiliary Bridges, etc with manual overrides.

And critical high security areas have independent security defenses
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
Deck plans are really important if this is going to be gamed out. Ships are three dimensional with many opportunities to move in every direction.

I'm not so involved in this as to want to map out the deckplan for a 300-meter long warship. I just want to do a random encounter table that throws some serious obstacles into the players' path before they reach somewhere vital. The overall idea I'm working toward is making rules (or at least providing assistance to GMs for planning encounters) that reflect what WEG's actual write-ups say. In this case, the Star Galleon needs something to represent its formidable anti-boarding defenses.

Quote:
I prefer referring to the re-imagined BSG. Some systems are ship wide but others like the Bridge, Engineering, and other critical areas have individual security systems that allow those areas to be locked down.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. The vital areas of the ship have formidable defenses set up around them, so to capture one of these areas requires getting through those defenses, and having those defenses coordinated from a central location (even if each "vital" has its own coordination point) is a far cry from every single section of the ship being compartmentalized on its own.

Quote:
BSG ship security is a more realistic portrayal of how security is set up in the real Navies.

The only drawback to using BSG is that that security system evolved in response to an enemy who was highly capable when it came to hacking and taking over networked computer systems.



Quote:
It's an over-used sci-fi trope. Somebody hacks the system and shuts everything down.

Indeed it is, but that doesn't mean it has to happen automatically just because someone throws the trope into the ring. Set the difficulty high enough to make it difficult to overcome, put a time limit / have it take too long, have strict prohibitions on what can be accessed (doesn't matter how high you roll if the system you are slicing isn't connected to the ship's security system).

Quote:
it's too easy to lose control of all systems if everything was on one system. Separate systems minimizes the chances of losing multiple systems. It's also why there are Auxiliary Bridges, etc with manual overrides.

And critical high security areas have independent security defenses

But ultimately, whoever has final authority to eject the cargo bay (as a last resort) needs to be aware of the situation throughout the ship. And if that degree of oversight exists, why not use it to help coordinate the defense in the first place?
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The only drawback to using BSG is that that security system evolved in response to an enemy who was highly capable when it came to hacking and taking over networked computer systems.


The SWU has the Katana fleet. A fleet that was so automated that every action of the entire 200 odd warships could be controlled from 1 ship.

And according to Star Wars lore the Katana Fleet disaster is why ships aren't heavily automated and use non-networked systems and droids so that can never happen again.

Quote:
But ultimately, whoever has final authority to eject the cargo bay (as a last resort) needs to be aware of the situation throughout the ship. And if that degree of oversight exists, why not use it to help coordinate the defense in the first place?


They can and do, but there would still be manual overrides in place that can't be hacked to allow defenders take control of situations where the chain of command has broken down.
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