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Revising Official Vehicle Stats
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it was actually from one of the AJ's where there was a rebel talking about the FF, and saying something like "man that thing's a beast, almost an at'at on repulsors.. Not as scary with them big legs stomping down, but still a mean beast"
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I think it was actually from one of the AJ's where there was a rebel talking about the FF, and saying something like "man that thing's a beast, almost an at'at on repulsors.. Not as scary with them big legs stomping down, but still a mean beast"

That's anecdotal, someone's impression that a FF has the same psychological impact as an AT-AT, not a statement of dimensions.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have posted this earlier, but what with the site being down for a few days and not knowing that CRM took up my request to stat the Imperial garrison, I just want to add a few things.

In case anyone wants them, here are the more detailed personnel/vehicle/starfighter complement stats from Adventure Journal 12 for the Imperial Garrison. Please note that CRM divided the crew into "1,760 personnel" and "1,240 troops" in his stats (and the numbers are correct), so I'll make the distinction between which is which in my complementary stats below. Basically, everyone is counted as "personnel" unless they have the word "troops" or "trooper" in their category, with the only exception of "Walker Crew Personnel" as these are actually counted as Troops since they're the AT-AT and AT-ST drivers/crewmen.
Personnel Complement:
300 Command Personnel
500 Support/Services Personnel
200 Technical Personnel
200 Science Personnel
100 Medical Personnel
100 Gunners/Weapons Technicians
80 Walker Technicians
70 Trade Mission/Diplomatic Personnel
60 Ground Crew Technicians
50 Walker Crew Personnel (these are the drivers/crew of the AT-ATs and AT-STs and are included in the Troops stat)
50 Imperial Intelligence Officers
40 TIE Fighter Pilots
25 Controllers
25 Sensor Technicians
10 Speeder Bike Technicians
800 Stormtroopers
200 Perimeter Support Troops
150 Base Security/Detention Troops
40 Scout Troopers
Total Personnel: 3000
Vehicle Complement:
10 AT-ATs
10 AT-STs
40 Speeder Bikes
60 Landspeeders
100 Miscellaneous Vehicles (including an armored limousine for the major general, assorted military landspeeders including 5 Chariot command speeders, a Mobile Command Base, one or more Juggernauts for Army trooper deployment, and a Floating Fortress)
Total Vehicles: 220
Starfighter Complement:
24 TIE/ln Fighters
12 TIE Bombers
4 TIE/rc Fighters (this flight is the garrison’s spotter unit)
Total Starfighters: 40
Note that the AJ12 stats has a total of 260 vehicles; this is because the 40 starfighters are included in the vehicle total (220+40=260).

As for my length/width/height garrison measurements that CRM referenced as being accurate as far as he knew, all I did was put the old WEG scale image of the garrison next to the scale-sized AT-AT on my monitor and put a ruler up to both images and made the proportional calculations (with a calculator). That's about as accurate as I could be with the tools I have. (At least I wasn't eyeballing it.)
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
I should have posted this earlier, but what with the site being down for a few days and not knowing that CRM took up my request to stat the Imperial garrison, I just want to add a few things.

In case anyone wants them, here are the more detailed personnel/vehicle/starfighter complement stats from Adventure Journal 12 for the Imperial Garrison. Please note that CRM divided the crew into "1,760 personnel" and "1,240 troops" in his stats (and the numbers are correct), so I'll make the distinction between which is which in my complementary stats below. Basically, everyone is counted as "personnel" unless they have the word "troops" or "trooper" in their category, with the only exception of "Walker Crew Personnel" as these are actually counted as Troops since they're the AT-AT and AT-ST drivers/crewmen.
Personnel Complement:
300 Command Personnel
500 Support/Services Personnel
200 Technical Personnel
200 Science Personnel
100 Medical Personnel
100 Gunners/Weapons Technicians
80 Walker Technicians
70 Trade Mission/Diplomatic Personnel
60 Ground Crew Technicians
50 Walker Crew Personnel (these are the drivers/crew of the AT-ATs and AT-STs and are included in the Troops stat)
50 Imperial Intelligence Officers
40 TIE Fighter Pilots
25 Controllers
25 Sensor Technicians
10 Speeder Bike Technicians
800 Stormtroopers
200 Perimeter Support Troops
150 Base Security/Detention Troops
40 Scout Troopers
Total Personnel: 3000
Vehicle Complement:
10 AT-ATs
10 AT-STs
40 Speeder Bikes
60 Landspeeders
100 Miscellaneous Vehicles (including an armored limousine for the major general, assorted military landspeeders including 5 Chariot command speeders, a Mobile Command Base, one or more Juggernauts for Army trooper deployment, and a Floating Fortress)
Total Vehicles: 220
Starfighter Complement:
24 TIE/ln Fighters
12 TIE Bombers
4 TIE/rc Fighters (this flight is the garrison’s spotter unit)
Total Starfighters: 40
Note that the AJ12 stats has a total of 260 vehicles; this is because the 40 starfighters are included in the vehicle total (220+40=260).

As for my length/width/height garrison measurements that CRM referenced as being accurate as far as he knew, all I did was put the old WEG scale image of the garrison next to the scale-sized AT-AT on my monitor and put a ruler up to both images and made the proportional calculations (with a calculator). That's about as accurate as I could be with the tools I have. (At least I wasn't eyeballing it.)


Might consider having "reserve" equipment. For example, you have 40 pilots and 40 starfighers. What happens when a ship is down for maintenance or repairs for battle damage? That's a pilot without a ship.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not entirely pleased with the idea of assigning specific numbers of vehicles to every garrison. IMO, the environment in which the garrison is deployed would be a critical factor. For example, a garrison deployed in close proximity to a major city would likely exchange many of its AT-ATs for Floating Fortresses or other vehicles better suited to patrolling in cities.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the detail. Thanks!!!

Naaman wrote:
Might consider having "reserve" equipment. For example, you have 40 pilots and 40 starfighers. What happens when a ship is down for maintenance or repairs for battle damage? That's a pilot without a ship.
But you also have the parallel problem of not enough pilots, say when one or more pilots are sick, injured, on leave, asleep, etc.

Which brings up a question. Do pilots have dedicated starfighters or do they take the next available starfighter?

And does this vary between Imperial and Rebel squadrons?

Back when we played a Rebel starfighter squadron I believe we had 1 or 2 spare NPC pilots in the squadron, but no spare ships. And the pilots had dedicated starfighters, but if a pilot was off-duty or away on a mission a reserve pilot would fly the missing pilot's ship if the squadron went into action.

With the exception of specialty squadron's (Darth Vader, Baron Fell, and the like) I tend to think of the Imperial's as not allowing pilots to "own" their own TIE, but to treat both pilot and ship as fungible substitutes.

So what do you do in your SWU?
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
    Chariot - 11.8
    Hoverscout - 15.9
    Freerunner - 14.6
    53' Semi Trailer - 16.06 meters
    M1 Abrams - 7.93 meters (9.77 w/ gun forward)
    M2 Bradley - 6.55 meters
    Stryker - 6.95 meters
Consider that a Freerunner is the same length as a 48' semi-trailer, yet can only carry a few crew and some weapons (or a squad of infantry if you take out some of the weapons). The Length on these three vehicles puts them in the same league as most Starfighters, but with a fraction of the capability and transport capacity.
This makes me wonder if the measurement was originally done and feet and an editing error transferred it to meters without conversion.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those dimensions in feet would make them about the size of a Honda Civic.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm not entirely pleased with the idea of assigning specific numbers of vehicles to every garrison. IMO, the environment in which the garrison is deployed would be a critical factor. For example, a garrison deployed in close proximity to a major city would likely exchange many of its AT-ATs for Floating Fortresses or other vehicles better suited to patrolling in cities.


Bren wrote:
I like the detail. Thanks!!!

Naaman wrote:
Might consider having "reserve" equipment. For example, you have 40 pilots and 40 starfighers. What happens when a ship is down for maintenance or repairs for battle damage? That's a pilot without a ship.
But you also have the parallel problem of not enough pilots, say when one or more pilots are sick, injured, on leave, asleep, etc.

Which brings up a question. Do pilots have dedicated starfighters or do they take the next available starfighter?

And does this vary between Imperial and Rebel squadrons?

Back when we played a Rebel starfighter squadron I believe we had 1 or 2 spare NPC pilots in the squadron, but no spare ships. And the pilots had dedicated starfighters, but if a pilot was off-duty or away on a mission a reserve pilot would fly the missing pilot's ship if the squadron went into action.

With the exception of specialty squadron's (Darth Vader, Baron Fell, and the like) I tend to think of the Imperial's as not allowing pilots to "own" their own TIE, but to treat both pilot and ship as fungible substitutes.

So what do you do in your SWU?


It would definitely make sense for the Empire, with its nigh-endless reserves of troops and vehicles, to have standardization in both the training of its troops/pilots and its equipment and vehicles. The logistics of a galaxy-spanning military force would demand such a thing just for the ease of replacement/reassignment alone. Replacing a TIE pilot with another is much easier if they're both rated to fly a TIE. By the same token, replacing damaged or worn parts is much easier if the parts are uniformly built in multiple factories across the galaxy.

Hell, this is lampshaded to hell and gone in both Expanded Universes, Canon and Legends. Even in the Rogue One novelization, Mon Mothma lampshades the enormous advantage the Empire has just by being able to repair their equipment with standardized parts and having an entire galaxy to call on for personnel. The Rebellion, OTOH, has to scrape by with mixed fleets with pilots who have different levels of training who now have to learn how to fly several different types of fighters at once. The Rebellion solves (or tries to solve) this problem by giving the Rebel pilots as much cross training as humanly possible. The Empire simply doesn't have this problem.

As for CRM's comment about how he dislikes assigning specific number to a garrison, we can just add the caveat that the above numbers are for a "standard" garrison and the GM can change the numbers as he sees fit to fit his chronicle. After my whole spiel above about how the Empire has it easy because of its standardization, we should also note that the more competent Imperial officers (and there are at least some in the Empire!) are going to make modifications necessary to fulfill the garrison's mission. That will necessitate changing the garrison's vehicle and crew complement accordingly.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Might consider having "reserve" equipment. For example, you have 40 pilots and 40 starfighers. What happens when a ship is down for maintenance or repairs for battle damage? That's a pilot without a ship.


IIRC the novels touched on that, where the rebels often had moer fighters down for repairs and maintenance than they had ready to use ones.

Bren wrote:


Which brings up a question. Do pilots have dedicated starfighters or do they take the next available starfighter?

And does this vary between Imperial and Rebel squadrons?


I would say yes. Rebels often brought IN their fighters (freighter) ships with them when they defected to the rebellion, so 'had a dedicated one for their own use'.. Where as the empire, probably just assigned you a squadron you would be in and you used what ship was available..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I would say yes. Rebels often brought IN their fighters (freighter) ships with them when they defected to the rebellion, so 'had a dedicated one for their own use'.. Where as the empire, probably just assigned you a squadron you would be in and you used what ship was available..

But we're talking about starfighters, not freighters. A defecting Imperial pilot is going to bring a TIE with him, not an X-Wing.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Those dimensions in feet would make them about the size of a Honda Civic.
Oops. That's is too small. I guess they did the measurements in cubits. That seems weird for sci-fi, but cubits are probably the measurement unit on Tatooine. Using cubits actually ends up with those two vehicles being a more reasonable length.

Sutehp wrote:
As for CRM's comment about how he dislikes assigning specific number to a garrison, we can just add the caveat that the above numbers are for a "standard" garrison and the GM can change the numbers as he sees fit to fit his chronicle. After my whole spiel above about how the Empire has it easy because of its standardization, we should also note that the more competent Imperial officers (and there are at least some in the Empire!) are going to make modifications necessary to fulfill the garrison's mission. That will necessitate changing the garrison's vehicle and crew complement accordingly.
And in addition, just because the Empire can replace men and vehicles that doesn't mean they can instantly make the replacement. So the actual strength is going to be different than (usually less than) the "standard" listed in an Imperial military TOE datafile.

garhkal wrote:
I would say yes. Rebels often brought IN their fighters (freighter) ships with them when they defected to the rebellion, so 'had a dedicated one for their own use'.
Yeah, Corran Horn did that in the Rogue Squadron novels.

CRMcNeill wrote:
But we're talking about starfighters, not freighters. A defecting Imperial pilot is going to bring a TIE with him, not an X-Wing.
A pilot isn't going to go very far in a TIE and I'd imagine that safely defecting in the middle of a starfighter battle would be especially tricky.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I guess they did the measurements in cubits. That seems weird for sci-fi, but cubits are probably the measurement unit on Tatooine.

Nope, even Tatooine has the metric system.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Which brings up a question. Do pilots have dedicated starfighters or do they take the next available starfighter?

And does this vary between Imperial and Rebel squadrons?

I did a little reading on modern fighter squadrons (specifically, the wing organization chapters in Tom Clancy's non-fiction books Fighter Wing and Carrier). The only thing I could find was in Fighter Wing, where the F-16 squadron assigned to the 366th Fighter Wing had roughly 5 aircrew for every 4 aircraft. No other squadrons in either book mention this, or any other number.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I did a little reading on modern fighter squadrons (specifically, the wing organization chapters in Tom Clancy's non-fiction books Fighter Wing and Carrier). The only thing I could find was in Fighter Wing, where the F-16 squadron assigned to the 366th Fighter Wing had roughly 5 aircrew for every 4 aircraft. No other squadrons in either book mention this, or any other number.
This is the answer to a different, but also interesting question. Namely, how many techs does it take to maintain, service, and otherwise keep a starfighter in space. Five seems like it's probably too many from a narrative perspective (too many NPCs to manage). On the other extreme, the old TV Show Ba Ba Blacksheep had only 1 or 2 techs to keep a squadron of 9-10 pilots and their aircraft flying.

Having an astromech would provide a rationale for fewer (than 5) aircrew. We had a few named techs, but we never named or gave stats to all the techs for the X-wing squadron campaign most remained nameless background NPCs, as did most of the astromechs. Imagining 12 unique astromech names and personalities would tax my imagination.


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