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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14030
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: |
"Arrows cost money. Use up the Irish. The dead cost nothing" |
One of my all time fave baddie quotes!
| Dredwulf60 wrote: |
Does the fact that a human is playing them make them more "person"? |
Not more of a 'person' but since they are a PC, they can be seen as more than just a 'droid'... Though planets with droid restriction on them, would still count.
| Dredwulf60 wrote: |
Would you allow one PC to own another PC and dictate that they do WHATEVER the master PC told them to? |
Yes and no.. They can dictate, but the fellow player still can decide to not do so.
| Dredwulf60 wrote: |
Would you allow droids without owners? Couldn't any 'real' person lay claim to them in the absence of contrary data? |
Again, yes and no. I have had a few droids without owners, but those were also on planets known for 'droid sentience-droid freedom' sentiment, so no one could just come in and 'lay claim to one'..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | | Even if the drones were !00% sentient...even the same human species...they could still be sent in instead of the master race. |
You should read some of the Bolo series. The Bolos (sentient mega-tanks), while self-aware and fully capable of emotion and similar human traits, are fully aware that they are not human, and that they are designed and constructed to defend humanity against threats, even if it costs them their existence. Any presumption of humanity or equality is on the part of the humans who work as Bolo commanders.
| Quote: | | "Arrows cost money. Use up the Irish. The dead cost nothing" |
Argumentum ad passiones (appeal to emotion) is a logical fallacy. Your entire argument is based around what we as humans feel about droids, not whether droids want or need those feelings.
Last summer, I was driving in San Bernardino after a rain storm. Off in the distance, I saw the figure of an old man standing in the middle of a huge puddle on the curb. I felt compassion for him and was going to pull over and see if he needed any help.
As I got closer, I realized he was a fire hydrant.
Any humanity possessed by this fire hydrant was purely the result of my own mistaken impressions. I ascribed human attributes to an object based on my own feelings, not any feelings possessed by the object that evoked those feelings in me.
Now, granted, the line between droids and humans is much finer than that of a solid hunk of metal imbedded in a sidewalk. But how much of your perception of humanity in a droid is based on your own emotional responses to them?
As I mentioned above, I'm not prepared to comment on whether or not advanced droids like Artoo and Threepio do or don't have souls. We as humans can't really prove we have them ourselves, and simply take it as a matter of faith that we do. And if a soul exists, where does it come from? In a fictional universe like the SWU, I'd be willing to accept the fiction that a soul springs from consciousness, and this applies to droids as well. But droids that attain consciousness and self-awareness are the exception, not the rule.
| Quote: | | If Luke had forced Artoo and Threepio to fight each other fo his amusement, would that be the act of a hero or a vilain from a viewer's perspective on morality. |
It certainly would make him an unsympathetic character, but that is, again, an appeal to emotion. Does making droids fight each other make these people evil, heartless monsters?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dredwulf60
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Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:50 am Post subject: |
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These issues have got me wanting to introduce a droid character based on Django Unchained.
D7A60 Unbolted.
A droid laborer who was given its freedom by a computer science technician-turned-bounty hunter in return for a term of service and assistance.
Trained and reprogrammed to be a bounty hunter, it's on a mission to rescue the protocol droid it loves from a plantation where droids are forced to fight each other for the entertainment of the master. Woe be to the 'biologicals' that try to stop him. |
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Dredwulf60
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Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:58 am Post subject: |
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LMAO.
nice. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | These issues have got me wanting to introduce a droid character based on Django Unchained.
D7A60 Unbolted.
A droid laborer who was given its freedom by a computer science technician-turned-bounty hunter in return for a term of service and assistance.
Trained and reprogrammed to be a bounty hunter, it's on a mission to rescue the protocol droid it loves from a plantation where droids are forced to fight each other for the entertainment of the master. Woe be to the 'biologicals' that try to stop him. |
It'd work better if it was two clones. The later books of the Honor Harrington series go into detail about genetic slavery in that universe, including a character who is a leader among the anti-slavery underground. Originally grown as an entertainer (juggler, acrobat, etc), he has used those natural abilities to become one of the deadliest gunfighters in the galaxy.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dredwulf60 wrote: | | Even if the drones were !00% sentient...even the same human species...they could still be sent in instead of the master race. |
You should read some of the Bolo series. |
I'm familiar with the series. But a sentient computer doesn't have to think it's human. In fact a sentient computer could believe it's far beyond us. Terminator's Skynet and the Matrix for example. Its thought processes could be completely alien, cold and calculating, but that doesn't reduce it to a mere appliance. A human being could be a remorseless sociopath..and still someone's slave.
A human person, like a true samurai for example could recognize their purpose is to serve a master and even kill themselves in that service. They are still sentient AND human.
| Quote: |
Now, granted, the line between droids and humans is much finer than that of a solid hunk of metal imbedded in a sidewalk. But how much of your perception of humanity in a droid is based on your own emotional responses to them? |
Gee McNEIL...i dunno...
Maybe when the droid indicates that it's terrified of being sent to the spice mines of kessel?
What about begging not to be deactivated for something it didn't do?
Luke Skywalker: What are you doing hiding back there?
C-3PO: It wasn't my fault, sir, please don't deactivate me. I told him not to go, but he's faulty, malfunctioning. Kept babbling on about his mission.
Voicing how willing it is to sacrifice parts of itself to re-activate a comrade droid?
C-3PO: You must repair him! Sir, if any of my circuits or gears will help, I'll gladly donate them.
Luke Skywalker: He'll be all right.
Screaming 'No! No! Noooo!' when hot elements are applied to its feet, (Thereby causing spontaneous ejection of coolant, which further depletes its reserves and pushes it further toward critical malfunction...(Which is how I remember the droid being tortured under Jabba's palace was explained in some EU source or another.))
If the droid seemed overcome with grief when it had tried to save my life, but thought it had failed,(Trash compactor scene) that might make me think of it as more than an object.
| Quote: | | If Luke had forced Artoo and Threepio to fight each other for his amusement, would that be the act of a hero or a vilain from a viewer's perspective on morality. |
| Quote: | | It certainly would make him an unsympathetic character, but that is, again, an appeal to emotion. Does making droids fight each other make these people evil, heartless monsters? |
Sorry I can't see the video. But I'm presuming the droids/ robots in the clip aren't begging their master to spare them the horror of dismembering a long time friend? |
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Dredwulf60
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Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
It'd work better if it was two clones. The later books of the Honor Harrington series go into detail about genetic slavery in that universe, including a character who is a leader among the anti-slavery underground. Originally grown as an entertainer (juggler, acrobat, etc), he has used those natural abilities to become one of the deadliest gunfighters in the galaxy. |
I don't equate the clones of Star Wars with slavery, personally. I can see where one could though. For me it's an allegory for mass Conscription. |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:47 am Post subject: |
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I think Dred makes a very good point... it's not just OUR emotional reaction to the droids, but also the droid's evinced emotional reactions to themselves and others... 3POs fear of deactivation, or offer of self-sacrifice, indicate a being that is self-aware enough to fear death for himself and for others.
You might argue that he's "just programmed that way", but aren't most humans? I mean, seriously, we have words for people who don't care if others or themselves live or die, and failure to do so is a disorder.
While droids are programmed for purposes ("C3PO, Human-Cyborg Relations"), they can grow beyond that purpose if they're allowed to... compare 3POs stated storytelling abilities in ANH v. telling the Ewoks the story of the Rebellion in RotJ. Essentially the same person, but with an increased skill base and a far less mercenary attitude... he was invested in the health and well being of his human and wookie friends, not merely his master or counterpart.
I think one has to, from a modern perspective, view droids as people. Constructed beings, sure, but no less people for that.
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"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
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JironGhrad
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Just to throw another little piece of data out there for discussion... in the ANH novel, the red R5 unit intentionally blows the motivator (Luke: "...this droid has a bad motivator. Look!") after communicating with R2 and being made aware of the nature of the situation. |
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D+1
Cadet
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:26 am Post subject: |
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My thinking was mostly that memory wipes are performed for two basic reasons. One is a matter of privacy and informational security. Droids are ALWAYS around - but people tend to ignore them. They talk in front of their droids about everything - their love lives, their fears and hatreds, crimes, military secrets, and lots and lots of stuff that you just don't want being spread around. Therefore, as a matter of sensible policy you wipe your droid's memories every year or so just for informational security. Like backing up your hard drives, or replacing the batteries in your smoke detectors, it's just something you need to do on a regular basis.
Another reason is that droids can and do break their programming. It's RARE, but it happens. Two things deal with that. First is restraining bolts. It's like putting chains on your slaves on the off chance they'll run away - just like R2 does in ANH. The other is memory wipes. If you do it on a regular basis they just don't remember enough to be able to form the "emotional" responses that come from accumulated experience.
Like the Nexus6 replicants in Blade Runner; even though they would have no memories prior to their incept dates, it was thought that after about 4 years they might develop their OWN emotional responses based on their accumulated memories. Since they were being used as prostitutes, combat troops, and various slave labors those responses would be dangerous - and thus they limited the life span to 4 years. Rachel was a different approach to the problem having been given artificial memories to see if that would make them more controllable and allow for a longer life span.
The dangers of not memory wiping droids that break programming can be seen in IG-88.
This also partially explains the attitude seen in the Mos Eisley cantina of droid hatred/fear/resentment. Droids don't forget anything so you don't want them overhearing your conversations and then being commanded to repeat what they heard. You don't want droids around you that might have broken programming or are about to - and unless they're YOUR droids you don't know how long it's been since their last memory wipe. |
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm honestly dumbfounded that this is even a coversation... I'm with garhkal. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14030
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| D+1 wrote: | My thinking was mostly that memory wipes are performed for two basic reasons. One is a matter of privacy and informational security. Droids are ALWAYS around - but people tend to ignore them. They talk in front of their droids about everything - their love lives, their fears and hatreds, crimes, military secrets, and lots and lots of stuff that you just don't want being spread around. Therefore, as a matter of sensible policy you wipe your droid's memories every year or so just for informational security. Like backing up your hard drives, or replacing the batteries in your smoke detectors, it's just something you need to do on a regular basis.
Another reason is that droids can and do break their programming. It's RARE, but it happens. Two things deal with that. First is restraining bolts. It's like putting chains on your slaves on the off chance they'll run away - just like R2 does in ANH. The other is memory wipes. If you do it on a regular basis they just don't remember enough to be able to form the "emotional" responses that come from accumulated experience.
Like the Nexus6 replicants in Blade Runner; even though they would have no memories prior to their incept dates, it was thought that after about 4 years they might develop their OWN emotional responses based on their accumulated memories. Since they were being used as prostitutes, combat troops, and various slave labors those responses would be dangerous - and thus they limited the life span to 4 years. Rachel was a different approach to the problem having been given artificial memories to see if that would make them more controllable and allow for a longer life span.
The dangers of not memory wiping droids that break programming can be seen in IG-88.
This also partially explains the attitude seen in the Mos Eisley cantina of droid hatred/fear/resentment. Droids don't forget anything so you don't want them overhearing your conversations and then being commanded to repeat what they heard. You don't want droids around you that might have broken programming or are about to - and unless they're YOUR droids you don't know how long it's been since their last memory wipe. |
Which is even worse when the droid is a Litigant droid, so has perfect memory...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I'm honestly dumbfounded that this is even a conversation... I'm with garhkal. |
Indeed. Per WEG, a droid is property, and droid characters must have an owner. IMO, treating a droid civilly (or thereabouts; see Han Solo) is a mark of a heroic character, and vice versa. Whether or not you or your character choose to see droids as living beings, the fact in the SWU is that they are basically an appliance.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | I'm honestly dumbfounded that this is even a conversation... I'm with garhkal. |
Indeed. Per WEG, a droid is property, and droid characters must have an owner. IMO, treating a droid civilly (or thereabouts; see Han Solo) is a mark of a heroic character, and vice versa. Whether or not you or your character choose to see droids as living beings, the fact in the SWU is that they are basically an appliance. |
The question is not whether they are property. Anything can be treated as property. Look at pets, livestock; Look at historical slaves.
If you were playing a historically accurate RPG set in the 1700s, then the game could very well declare that black african characters in the colonies must have owners.
I'm convinced that it is no coincidence that the droids are enslaved. The heroes are benevolent masters, but masters no less. If you want to go with a more medieval motif, then they can be seen to be serfs.
It's a way to have a slave class and still be morally okay with it for family entertainment...because they aren't alive. They act alive, and emote as a person...but it's okay little johnny because they're just machines. Some are obviously sentient and self-aware machines. But just machines.
The same way Nazis make such great villains. Anyone you try to make into a bad guy for movies is going to offend someone. But not the Nazis. They are safe bad guys to kill by the thousands if need be.
And I'm fine with that. In the context of the SW Galaxy, machine slavery is pretty much the norm. Slavery of biologicals a little less the norm, but still rampant. That's the way that universe is. |
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WARNING: PG-13 language 
