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The Psychology of Droids
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
But, then, we get back to sample. The sample we have is pretty much R2, 3P0, and BB-8. The 2-1B that helped Luke on Hoth? We've got a couple lines of dialogue...

And I repeat, this is not a representative sample of the droid population of the SWU as a whole. Film makers are trying to entertain, and no director in his right mind would insert five minutes of a cleaning droid sweeping a hallway just to insure that his film was demographically accurate. He is telling a story, which focuses on the important characters, and not minutiae.
    Cherry Picking (def.) - the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
You can't just use three famous droids to prove your point while ignoring the in-universe fact that there are billions upon billions of droids who are little more than highly complex appliances.

Your use of this logical fallacy is bad enough, but when you double down and use it again after it has already been pointed out that this is not a representative sample, it greatly undermines your point.

In addition, you are also ignoring the official background of the SWU:
    1) The Republic has been around for "over a thousand generations", and has abolished slavery of organic beings, yet personal ownership of a droid is perfectly legal, and mind wiping is considered nothing more than standard maintenance. The only people who object to this are little more than a lunatic fringe. Thus, it is obvious that, whatever opinions you may hold about the morals and ethics of mistreatment of droids, they are not shared by mainstream society in the SWU.

    2) If the Republic has been around for thousands of years, so too has the collective droid production industry that designs, manufactures and sells droids. This industry has had thousands of years to refine their techniques, and are motivated by profit, not altruism. It is not in their interest at all to make a product that has innate, inalienable rights the moment someone flips the On-switch.


Quote:
So, where do you wind up drawing the line? The clones, for example, are purpose built and programmed... do they not count? If you kill an individual Bilar, is it murder? What if it was part of a group mind?

This is a faulty analogy logical fallacy (assuming that because two things are alike in one or more respects, they are necessarily alike in some other respect), and its not the first time its been used in this thread. Trying to draw an equivalence by pointing out similarities does not cancel out the differences between droids and living beings.

Quote:
Even if all droids are not necessarily sentient, what is the moral and ethical obligation of sentient beings towards droids? And it is an ethical concern, because droids can develop sentience...

Roughly the same moral and ethical obligation a sentient would have towards his comlink or his speeder. Your assertion of a moral obligation essentially boils down to an appeal to emotion logical fallacy; never mind that droids are manufactured to perform a service, it's how they make people feel that defines what they really are.

Quote:
Wookiepedia's canon section implies that it is a natural outgrowth of experience. It is simply an ethical issue because it is how you treat beings that are capable of thought, are self-aware and self-preserving, and, if left alone, will become intelligent given the passage of time.

Yet obviously, this is not what happens in the SWU, and only the lunatic fringe objects to it. You are engaging in wishful thinking, projecting what you wish to be true on a fictional universe that plays by different rules.

Quote:
To round it to game terms... if you go with the 18D of attribute dice, how do you deal with a droid that has learned... if you start with a 12D droid, and leave it unwiped for a long period of time (allowing it to accumulate CPs through experience, and spend those CPs to improve and expand skills), where does it cross the line?

I deal with it by saying that a droid with 18D Attribute Dice is either a player character or a major NPC, and operates at a level at which the vast majority of beings in the galaxy will never achieve, regardless of whether they are human, alien or droid. All characters start in media res, with a backstory detailing how they reached the point where game play begins. The same is true of droids. Even then, they are still expected to have a master, and are considered someone's property, and this is not remarked upon even in the parts of the galaxy that have abolished slavery for living beings.

Ultimately, you may play your SWU however you like. However, the rest of us have that same right. While it is obvious you have strong opinions on the matter, it is equally obvious that they are based on personal beliefs that you want to be true about the SWU, while disregarding statements of in-universe fact about what is true about the SWU. This is your prerogative in your own SWU, of course, but ultimately, I find your position on this matter to be illogical, and in conflict with the social situation that actually obtains in the SWU.
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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
So, where do you wind up drawing the line? The clones, for example, are purpose built and programmed... do they not count? If you kill an individual Bilar, is it murder? What if it was part of a group mind?

This is a faulty analogy logical fallacy (assuming that because two things are alike in one or more respects, they are necessarily alike in some other respect), and its not the first time its been used in this thread. Trying to draw an equivalence by pointing out similarities does not cancel out the differences between droids and living beings.


And to point out (while I'm not a particular fan of the Clone Wars cartoon), the clones were frequently identified as property in spite of the creation of nicknames to render them identifiable; it was a major theme point in season 6 in fact.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

And I repeat, this is not a representative sample of the droid population of the SWU as a whole.


And the sample of human and alien individuals we have is in no way a representative sample of the human or alien populations as a whole; as you overlooked, Leia is probably not even representative of the set [Alderaanian Princesses], much less [Humans]. But, repeatedly, the small sample we have in the OT is used to generalize alien races. Greedo is a bounty hunter, so his entire race is hunters. We see a few Gamorreans, so the archetype of the species is thugs. One Aqualish beligerently grunts some noises in a bar? They're all beligerent. A Bith band in the cantina? Hey, look, the Bith revere music in their culture, whodathunkit? Jabba was a crime lord... all hutts are crime lords! Nien Nubb was Lando's co-pilot? Guess who have great abilities as astrogators!

Generalizing from individual examples is a huge part of the Star Wars canon, so while R2, 3P0, and BB-8 may not be representative of all droids, it's not a bad place to start for droids who specifically require the ability to make judgements in their core programming (i.e. type one, two, three, and four droids).

Quote:
In addition, you are also ignoring the official background of the SWU:[list]1) The Republic has been around for "over a thousand generations", and has abolished slavery of organic beings, yet personal ownership of a droid is perfectly legal, and mind wiping is considered nothing more than standard maintenance. The only people who object to this are little more than a lunatic fringe. Thus, it is obvious that, whatever opinions you may hold about the morals and ethics of mistreatment of droids, they are not shared by mainstream society in the SWU.


And I didn't say they were. But lots of positions not shared by mainstream society are later held to be ethically correct. Sure, the Republic banned slavery... but the Empire cheerfully brought it back for entire species. Anakin Skywalker was a slave as recently as 30 years before the OT, and its doubtful he was the only slave on Tattooine, nominally part of the Republic. And, of course, the Republic was content to allow genetic clones to be created and considered owned property (per Jiron's note above).

The Republic, for its antiquity, is not a moral paragon, incapable of being questioned. It engaged in its own form of slavery of organics, looked the other way while member worlds engaged in chattel slavery, and gave birth to an Empire that went with species-wide slavery. Arguing from antiquity does you no favors.

Quote:

2) If the Republic has been around for thousands of years, so too has the collective droid production industry that designs, manufactures and sells droids. This industry has had thousands of years to refine their techniques, and are motivated by profit, not altruism. It is not in their interest at all to make a product that has innate, inalienable rights the moment someone flips the On-switch.


Rights don't particularly matter if Galactic Society refuses to acknowledge them. After all, in American history, we declared our independence with "All men are created equal, endowed ... with certain inalienable rights, including ... liberty" and a few short years later wrote a constitution that said Slavery is A-OK and some men are counted as 3/5ths of a person.

Quote:
This is a faulty analogy logical fallacy (assuming that because two things are alike in one or more respects, they are necessarily alike in some other respect), and its not the first time its been used in this thread. Trying to draw an equivalence by pointing out similarities does not cancel out the differences between droids and living beings.


Which are what? That's sort of the crux of the issue... what are the differences between clones and droids? Both are manufactured for a certain purpose. Both have programming at the fundamental level to make them more subservient. Yes, clones are biological and droids are not. But in terms of their minds, what's the difference between a clone and a droid? What makes one a person and the other a glorified commlink?

Quote:
Roughly the same moral and ethical obligation a sentient would have towards his comlink or his speeder. Your assertion of a moral obligation essentially boils down to an appeal to emotion logical fallacy; never mind that droids are manufactured to perform a service, it's how they make people feel that defines what they really are.


So, you would extend this to dogs and other animals, as well? Arguably less sentient than even the least-independent astromech or protocol droid, and those of recognized breeds were created for perform a given service. Both feel pain and avoid it. Both will return to masters who abuse them, partially due to programming for such behavior. A droid, of course, can request that you stop hurting it and be fitted with a restraining bolt... but I suppose you could always use a shock collar on your dog.

Quote:

Ultimately, you may play your SWU however you like. However, the rest of us have that same right. While it is obvious you have strong opinions on the matter, it is equally obvious that they are based on personal beliefs that you want to be true about the SWU, while disregarding statements of in-universe fact about what is true about the SWU. This is your prerogative in your own SWU, of course, but ultimately, I find your position on this matter to be illogical, and in conflict with the social situation that actually obtains in the SWU.


Whereas you are treating the positions assumed by many in the SWU to be necessarily morally correct, countering an "appeal to emotion" with an appeal to authority (i.e. "That's how it is so it must be correct") and an appeal to antiquity (i.e. "It's been this way for a while now, so it must be right.") You also like the casual ad hominem (how many times did you say "lunatic fringe"?).

I'm not disputing the state of opinion in the SWU... since ANH, it's been clear that droids are regarded as a salable commodity by the galaxy at large, and subject to discrimination based on that. I'm looking at what is moral and ethical when you create an intelligent being, even if you design it to serve you. That's where the clones come in, because, while they're set on a biological platform, they are, in many ways, just as designed to serve a droid is. Millions were made in a short time to fulfill a purpose, their fundamental programming altered to be more subservient.
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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
And the sample of human and alien individuals we have is in no way a representative sample of the human or alien populations as a whole; as you overlooked, Leia is probably not even representative of the set [Alderaanian Princesses], much less [Humans]. But, repeatedly, the small sample we have in the OT is used to generalize alien races. Greedo is a bounty hunter, so his entire race is hunters. We see a few Gamorreans, so the archetype of the species is thugs. One Aqualish beligerently grunts some noises in a bar? They're all beligerent. A Bith band in the cantina? Hey, look, the Bith revere music in their culture, whodathunkit? Jabba was a crime lord... all hutts are crime lords! Nien Nubb was Lando's co-pilot? Guess who have great abilities as astrogators!


While your arguments are not without some merit on their face, you're missing a key point. That key point is that the company which created all this stuff is the one who originally defined those stereotypes by way of the writers employed to create the fluff. The fluff created (aside from the films) directly contradicts your argument. While it is possible to infer certain things, many of the stories in the (now) Legends universe clearly indicate that droids like R2, C3P0 and BB8 are the exception rather than the rule.

Quote:
And I didn't say they were. But lots of positions not shared by mainstream society are later held to be ethically correct. Sure, the Republic banned slavery... but the Empire cheerfully brought it back for entire species. Anakin Skywalker was a slave as recently as 30 years before the OT, and its doubtful he was the only slave on Tattooine, nominally part of the Republic. And, of course, the Republic was content to allow genetic clones to be created and considered owned property (per Jiron's note above).

The Republic, for its antiquity, is not a moral paragon, incapable of being questioned. It engaged in its own form of slavery of organics, looked the other way while member worlds engaged in chattel slavery, and gave birth to an Empire that went with species-wide slavery. Arguing from antiquity does you no favors.


You've misinterpreted something again, Tattooine was not part of the Republic at all. Hutt Space was an independent "nation" like the Empire or the Republic. The laws there differ from those elsewhere. It should also be noted (as the devil's advocate so to speak) that the wookiees were "enslaved" from the Rebel perspective. The entire wookiee population weren't transported elsewhere and those that were "might" have been considered penal workers. They may even have been "paid" a sum equal to the cost of feeding/housing. Inferring things can be a slippery slope.

Quote:

Rights don't particularly matter if Galactic Society refuses to acknowledge them. After all, in American history, we declared our independence with "All men are created equal, endowed ... with certain inalienable rights, including ... liberty" and a few short years later wrote a constitution that said Slavery is A-OK and some men are counted as 3/5ths of a person.


I should point out here that a lot of things generally accepted to be true about slavery in the United States are incorrect. I could go on and on about the myths that people believe but that wouldn't really fit the theme of this forum.

Quote:
Which are what? That's sort of the crux of the issue... what are the differences between clones and droids? Both are manufactured for a certain purpose. Both have programming at the fundamental level to make them more subservient. Yes, clones are biological and droids are not. But in terms of their minds, what's the difference between a clone and a droid? What makes one a person and the other a glorified commlink?


The key difference that I see is that clones are human genetic stock and while they are "trained" to function a certain way, the human brain has unlimited capability. A droid, as a crafted machine, is only as intelligent as the crafter permits it to be. A Roomba can't develop beyond itself, where a cloned maid will, unless it's a damaged version of a human (by design or accident).

Quote:
So, you would extend this to dogs and other animals, as well? Arguably less sentient than even the least-independent astromech or protocol droid, and those of recognized breeds were created for perform a given service. Both feel pain and avoid it. Both will return to masters who abuse them, partially due to programming for such behavior. A droid, of course, can request that you stop hurting it and be fitted with a restraining bolt... but I suppose you could always use a shock collar on your dog.


Humans are sentimental, and get attached to things. Dogs, droids, plants, then you have those weird furry people. There are people who come back to abusive situations all the time too, so it's not merely an animal trait.

Quote:

I'm not disputing the state of opinion in the SWU... since ANH, it's been clear that droids are regarded as a salable commodity by the galaxy at large, and subject to discrimination based on that. I'm looking at what is moral and ethical when you create an intelligent being, even if you design it to serve you. That's where the clones come in, because, while they're set on a biological platform, they are, in many ways, just as designed to serve as a droid is. Millions were made in a short time to fulfill a purpose, their fundamental programming altered to be more subservient.


You seem to be an idealist. While admirable, moral and ethical concerns have little to do with political reality or expediency. Even if you "are" correct that it's unethical to have sentient droids as subservient machines, people have to care, and in the SWU, they don't. (I edited this last section to avoid the thread being derailed by modern political analysis.)
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JironGhrad wrote:
You seem to be an idealist. While admirable, moral and ethical concerns have little to do with political reality or expediency. Even if you "are" correct that it's unethical to have sentient droids as subservient machines, people have to care, and in the SWU, they don't. (I edited this last section to avoid the thread being derailed by modern political analysis.)


I'm also not saying that it is inherently unethical to be served by sentient droids... as pointed out, droids are created with a strong subservience streak. Tell 3P0 he's owned by Jabba, and he starts working for Jabba, even if he's dismayed by the fact that his previous owner gave him away. Heck, 3P0 gets kidnapped by Jawas and sold to Owen Lars and he's content with it. Even R2, the most independent of droids, seems somewhat content to continue to serve Luke. But, the existence of a subservient impulse does not erase an ethical obligation to treat intelligences humanely.

And there are droid exceptions to this... droids who want freedom, due to any number of reasons. And then you have the question of what to do with someone who wants freedom, whatever the reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
And there are droid exceptions to this... droids who want freedom, due to any number of reasons. And then you have the question of what to do with someone who wants freedom, whatever the reason.


You wipe its memory, as it's clearly malfunctioning. A droid is the sum of its programming; if a unit exhibits behaviors outside the intended function, that is aberrant behavior. Where you seem to be hung up is whether a droid has the 'right' to seek independence; in the SWU, they don't: they're property.

Even Bollux and Blue Max in the Han Solo stories, while nominally "free" had a registered owner (Doc and Jessa). The reason being that abandoned property laws apply to droids as well as other things (I believe it was discussed in the book about Xim the Despot, when the agent tried to repo the Millenium Falcon).
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4141

Also relevant, though a bit of a bop on the nose for me. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4141

Also relevant, though a bit of a bop on the nose for me. Wink


I believe that's what I said in the preceding post.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JironGhrad wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4141

Also relevant, though a bit of a bop on the nose for me. Wink


I believe that's what I said in the preceding post.


Of course, it gets back to programming, and how they are programmed. Would people program droids in that way?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Of course, it gets back to programming, and how they are programmed. Would people program droids in that way?


They don't. Three obvious reasons why:

1. Commercially created droids are intended to perform a purpose, be it sweeping floors, programming nav jumps, translating, or security. Any programming that would cause a droid to deviate from that fixed purpose, on purpose, would be legally debilitating: "I'm going to sell you this vacuum droid, but in 3 months it's going to decide it's unhappy and walk out on you." Cue litigation.

2. Examples of droids programmed with independence in mind have dangerous and lethal results: see IG-88's origin story, HK-47's origin story. Commercial production of such units would be disastrous if they were uncontrollable.

3. Without preventative controls in place, any droid becomes suspect. If independence were to be spread, a droid revolution could take place. See: World of Dune, World of Warhammer 40k, Skynet. Also see, HAL 2001.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're saying that the SWU doesn't have an equivalent of the Laws of Robotics, because the scenario in the comic would be implied to conflict with the third law.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So you're saying that the SWU doesn't have an equivalent of the Laws of Robotics, because the scenario in the comic would be implied to conflict with the third law.


There has never been a stated example beyond the single statement in RotJ where C-3P0 says, "...it's against my programming to impersonate a deity." But then, Luke instructs him to do something similar, "...tell them you'll become angry and use your magic..." where he complies. A marginal distinction between magic user and powerful god-like being to an ewok...

I would say that droids don't entirely follow Azimov's rules because: IG-88 (and security droids and battle droids) exist: such units are killing humans/other species, therefore clearly violating the first Law of Robotics.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different droids have hard coded rules that they cannot violate with out major moding, 3P0 was coded not to be able to pilot things and yet Dooku had a pilot droid. a standard 2-1B Probably couldn't pick up a blaster and shoot some one but the trade federation/Separatists had whole armies of blaster armed battle droids. 'three laws safe' isn't a concept in star wars its more 'a 3P0 doesn't need to fly, fight or pretend its a god, a 21B shouldn't kill....a B2 Super battle droid SHOULD kill its designated targets because that's what they were designed for' thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedKnight wrote:
Different droids have hard coded rules that they cannot violate with out major moding, 3P0 was coded not to be able to pilot things and yet Dooku had a pilot droid. a standard 2-1B Probably couldn't pick up a blaster and shoot some one but the trade federation/Separatists had whole armies of blaster armed battle droids. 'three laws safe' isn't a concept in star wars its more 'a 3P0 doesn't need to fly, fight or pretend its a god

Actually Threepio piloted Luke's landspeeder in the original film and Padme's starship in RotS.

But it makes sense that in the Empire all droids (except fourth-degree) would be specifically programmed by default not to harm sentients, especially in light of the prequel revelation that droids composed the armies of the enemy in the Clone Wars.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
[But it makes sense that in the Empire all droids (except fourth-degree) would be specifically programmed by default not to harm sentients, especially in light of the prequel revelation that droids composed the armies of the enemy in the Clone Wars.

Agreed. My only quibble would be with the Second Law of Robotics, requiring a robot to obey any human would not necessarily be a good idea. Considering droids are proprietary, an owner would want to place limits on the number of people authorized to issue the droid commands. For example, a servant droid that is required to obey the commands of any human / organic answers the door while his owner is away. A pair of thieves outside order the droid to let them in. By a literal interpretation of the Second Law, the droid would have to do it.

BTW, MrNexx, this may interest you. It's some droid tech I came up with that allows a modified droid (one with free will) to bypass restraining bolts and memory wipes.
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