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Armor Proficiency?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know using an Advanced Skill was my idea, but I've changed my mind. Per the RAW, using skill prerequisites would allow he character to stack his Armor Training with the prerequisites, which is a rather unrealistic return for just learning to work around the weight and bulk of the armor.

As such, I think the Sparks approach (straight CP cost to purchase the ability) is a better choice. I prefer a higher CP cost (I don't think this ability should come easy), but I also think it's important to remember that, at a certain point on the CP exchange rate scale, it will become more cost effective to just increase your Dex attribute by 1D.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how's about 5cp per pip up to 1d to buy off, 6cps per pip from 1d to 2d, and 7 for 2d to 3d..
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

It relates to your "Carrying it over time" angle from your last post on page 1..


This strikes me as similar to the difference between Strength and Constitution in D&D. Lots of folks want to make Constitution into a stamina stat, but when you read the definition (of both Lifting and D&D's strength), carrying-burden-over-time is factored into WEG's Lifting and D&D's Strength.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Maybe "armor use" needs to be an alternate reaction skil to dodge: if you roll armor use, you automatically get hit (unless the attack just misses) but you get a bonus to your soak roll (the higher your armor use roll, the higjer the bonus).

If you use dodge, you take the penalty but you get just the standard armor bonus.


Hmmm... so, if we went this route, would it be a regular skill or an advanced skill?

How would you work the damage reduction/armor improvement based on the Armor Use skill roll?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I know using an Advanced Skill was my idea, but I've changed my mind. Per the RAW, using skill prerequisites would allow he character to stack his Armor Training with the prerequisites, which is a rather unrealistic return for just learning to work around the weight and bulk of the armor.

As such, I think the Sparks approach (straight CP cost to purchase the ability) is a better choice. I prefer a higher CP cost (I don't think this ability should come easy), but I also think it's important to remember that, at a certain point on the CP exchange rate scale, it will become more cost effective to just increase your Dex attribute by 1D.


My question with the Sparks approach is how broadly does this apply? Is it "I reduce the penalty with this suit of armor I am wearing", "I reduce the penalty with all stormtrooper armor", or "I reduce the penalty with all armor"?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:

My question with the Sparks approach is how broadly does this apply? Is it "I reduce the penalty with this suit of armor I am wearing", "I reduce the penalty with all stormtrooper armor", or "I reduce the penalty with all armor"?


This suit.
I currently have a suit of modified storm Commando armor i nabbed from a baddie i killed in one module (str+1d+2 phys, Str+1d+1 energy, +2d stealth -1d dex penalty) that i bought the dex penalty off for.

But just over a year later i lost the suit after getting almost killed from a TD blowing up right behind me (had to pop 4 CP's to survive it with only a Mortal wound).. Sad Sad
If i got a new suit of storm commando armor, that was similarly modified, IT too would need to get it's Dex penalty bought off from.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
shootingwomprats wrote:
I don't think he cares buddy. He has an idea from D&D and hell or high water he will develop a mechanic to overcome the rule. It's fine with me, he can do whatever he wants in his game and it might even make sense and fit depending on what he is trying to do. As a standard mechanic, adopted for general play, I wouldn't allow it. I do allow the spending of Character Points and credits to customize equipment and armor, very similar to what gharkal suggested from the rules that his group uses.

It's not just a D&D idea, though. WEG has suggested eliminating the Dex penalty for stormtroopers armor because of how much time they spend in it. They even applied it to some stories in an encounter in The Far Orbit Project. What they did't do was provide a mechanic for how it could be earned, either by PCs or NPCs. Honestly, I could go with either an Advanced Skill or a straight CP cost, or even making it part of an Advantage / Disadvantage system. I am, however, partial to higher CP cost methods because I don't something like this should be attained easily.


This was my reasoning behind allowing it as a purchasable trait. If Mook NPCs can have it, a professional soldier PC can have it as well.

Quote:
This suit.
I currently have a suit of modified storm Commando armor i nabbed from a baddie i killed in one module (str+1d+2 phys, Str+1d+1 energy, +2d stealth -1d dex penalty) that i bought the dex penalty off for.

But just over a year later i lost the suit after getting almost killed from a TD blowing up right behind me (had to pop 4 CP's to survive it with only a Mortal wound).. Sad Sad
If i got a new suit of storm commando armor, that was similarly modified, IT too would need to get it's Dex penalty bought off from.


I could see it for a single type of armor, but I wouldn't have someone dump CPs for two different suits of Storm Commando Armor. But, I know Sparks has its own intricacies for which I will never fully grasp.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Naaman wrote:

Maybe "armor use" needs to be an alternate reaction skil to dodge: if you roll armor use, you automatically get hit (unless the attack just misses) but you get a bonus to your soak roll (the higher your armor use roll, the higjer the bonus).

If you use dodge, you take the penalty but you get just the standard armor bonus.


Hmmm... so, if we went this route, would it be a regular skill or an advanced skill?

How would you work the damage reduction/armor improvement based on the Armor Use skill roll?


Oh, I don't know. Id have to play around with it a bit. The idea is that some attacks render the armor useless, and other attacks are rendered ineffective if they hit the armor. The character would certainly want to dodge an EWEB, but may not be worried at all about a blaster pistol (confident that his armor will stop the blast cold).

In any case, a successcful roll on +2D armor might allow a +1 bonus for every x points over the attack roll. Thinking about it, it mirrors perfectly the optional damage rules found in the SpecForce book.

You might want to impose a limit on the max achievable result (say, double the base protection bonus), or else you'll have folks surviving death star blasts.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
But, I know Sparks has its own intricacies for which I will never fully grasp.


We certainly do! Heck our GM handbook, is upwards of 290 pages on its own, including a complete rundown on all force powers, rules for Cha generation, FAQs.. you name it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Naaman wrote:

Maybe "armor use" needs to be an alternate reaction skil to dodge: if you roll armor use, you automatically get hit (unless the attack just misses) but you get a bonus to your soak roll (the higher your armor use roll, the higjer the bonus).

If you use dodge, you take the penalty but you get just the standard armor bonus.


Hmmm... so, if we went this route, would it be a regular skill or an advanced skill?

How would you work the damage reduction/armor improvement based on the Armor Use skill roll?


Oh, I don't know. Id have to play around with it a bit. The idea is that some attacks render the armor useless, and other attacks are rendered ineffective if they hit the armor. The character would certainly want to dodge an EWEB, but may not be worried at all about a blaster pistol (confident that his armor will stop the blast cold).

In any case, a successcful roll on +2D armor might allow a +1 bonus for every x points over the attack roll. Thinking about it, it mirrors perfectly the optional damage rules found in the SpecForce book.


Hmmm... so, if I'm reading you right (I don't have the SpecForce book to check):

I have Armor Use of 3D, in my +1D v. Energy armor. Someone attacks me with a blaster, rolling 14 on their attack roll. If I exceed 14 on my Armor Use roll, I get a bonus to my armor for soak purposes... so a 15 might give me an effective +1D+1 armor, and an 18 might give me an effective +1D+2 armor?
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Rusharn
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For that matter, modern armor is available with what is known as a "shooter's cut." The plates are shaped to allow easier movement of the arms for optimum shooting technique. IMHO, the shooter's cut has no trade off. Same protection.


I allow my players to customize a suit of armor to remove dex penalties at the same ratio as increasing armor. 1 pip per increasing 5%, 10%, 15%, etc of cost, and an increasing +5 armor check diff per pip. However I rule that the armor is custom fitted for one person. So while the Merc wearing his customer armor has the reduced dex penalty, if he gives it to the Pilot, the pilot will still suffer the full penalty because it was not customized for his body.

That keeps things with in a rules set that my players are used too making things easier on them.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that a lot. Custom fit makes a lot of sense to me.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusharn wrote:
Quote:
For that matter, modern armor is available with what is known as a "shooter's cut." The plates are shaped to allow easier movement of the arms for optimum shooting technique. IMHO, the shooter's cut has no trade off. Same protection.


I allow my players to customize a suit of armor to remove dex penalties at the same ratio as increasing armor. 1 pip per increasing 5%, 10%, 15%, etc of cost, and an increasing +5 armor check diff per pip. However I rule that the armor is custom fitted for one person. So while the Merc wearing his customer armor has the reduced dex penalty, if he gives it to the Pilot, the pilot will still suffer the full penalty because it was not customized for his body.

That keeps things with in a rules set that my players are used too making things easier on them.


BY chance do you play with armor damage rules??
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Naaman wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Naaman wrote:

Maybe "armor use" needs to be an alternate reaction skil to dodge: if you roll armor use, you automatically get hit (unless the attack just misses) but you get a bonus to your soak roll (the higher your armor use roll, the higjer the bonus).

If you use dodge, you take the penalty but you get just the standard armor bonus.


Hmmm... so, if we went this route, would it be a regular skill or an advanced skill?

How would you work the damage reduction/armor improvement based on the Armor Use skill roll?


Oh, I don't know. Id have to play around with it a bit. The idea is that some attacks render the armor useless, and other attacks are rendered ineffective if they hit the armor. The character would certainly want to dodge an EWEB, but may not be worried at all about a blaster pistol (confident that his armor will stop the blast cold).

In any case, a successcful roll on +2D armor might allow a +1 bonus for every x points over the attack roll. Thinking about it, it mirrors perfectly the optional damage rules found in the SpecForce book.


Hmmm... so, if I'm reading you right (I don't have the SpecForce book to check):

I have Armor Use of 3D, in my +1D v. Energy armor. Someone attacks me with a blaster, rolling 14 on their attack roll. If I exceed 14 on my Armor Use roll, I get a bonus to my armor for soak purposes... so a 15 might give me an effective +1D+1 armor, and an 18 might give me an effective +1D+2 armor?


That's not exactly how I envisioned it, but if you like it, that's cool.

What I was thinking was that the blaster roll is irrellevant (you're almost certain to get hit). You would be rolling soak no matter what. Your armor use roll would be against the armor's difficulty and if you beat THAT number, your bonus is proportionate to the margin of success.

If you fail the roll, you get the armor's base protection (since you are still wearing it, after all).
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

What I was thinking was that the blaster roll is irrellevant (you're almost certain to get hit). You would be rolling soak no matter what. Your armor use roll would be against the armor's difficulty and if you beat THAT number, your bonus is proportionate to the margin of success.

If you fail the roll, you get the armor's base protection (since you are still wearing it, after all).


Ahhh, got it.
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