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Using the force: for jedi masters only?
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Phalanks Balas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing a caracter with Force capabilities during Rebellion area is a chalenge for skilled players. Only a "rookie" can imagine that a new caracter can handle a light saber with the Force.
Sometime it's better to use caracter points to succeed in using the Force even if it will slow your advance. Sometime it's better to use your brain to avoid a bad situation.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is true that the starting templates for force characters only have 1D in each force skill. Yes it is true without a master learning the force is tricky (needing 2x CP per pip). But, there are things to consider:
Each template gets 7D to customise. These can be added to ANY skill on the character sheet with a Maximum of 2D to any given skill. If a player playing a force wielder does not add any to his Force skills, then he must not have taken the force very seriously. I have found a character with 3D to 4D in a force skill can do many things effectively, and has a real edge on a regular character (look at the control force power to increase attributes for example}). Sure, 3D is no Jedi master, but burn a force point and that's 6D.
Now, sure Force skills need 2x CP to increase without a master, but each full die is almost an exponential increase. Characters who stick with it and reach skills of 5D or 6D have a HUGE advantage with the force, and that is reflected in the cost of the force. Any player worth his salt who is serious about a Jedi character will pay to increase those skills, and this is how you tell the good force using players apart. The player that never increases his character's skill above 2 or 3D and always complains that he can't do anything, well, he isn't cut out to be a Jedi Wink

As for Powers and learning them... I personally have never liked the way second edition handled that whole issue. Obviously, someone had to discover the power at some time, so learning powers through exploration should be possible. I have always preferred the way the Star Wars Rules Companion handled this. Their are several sources that support self exploration for new force powers, but this is definately left up to each GM as personal taste.
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Akari
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@KageRyu: I would definately disallow that as a master. Starting with 3d in force skills is definately too high compared to how other characters start. Jedi begin their journey weak. Probably weakest among the classes. They pay for easily having the highest possible potential. Having access to a total of 9d in Force skills when they start out is simply asking for unfavorable reactions from the non-jedi playerbase.

I also don't double the costs for force skill advancement without master, I triple them. Also I make them use time to train: a week per pip. Extra powers cost 15 character points flat out and at least a month of time of intense, mostly undisturbed meditation.

I still see this as balanced. Jedi characters without a master have to suffer. But they are free to train in their non-jedi skills without any sort of penalty. Only through really good roleplaying they will ever be able to find somebody who can train them. And even then its likely not a master but a mere student himself.
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Kehlin Yew
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a player has good control of his own abilities, say 18D total, should you not be able to manipulate the force to do what you want it to do?

After all, is that not what a Force Skill is?

So what is to say you can't just think on the subject, and then just test it in the field?

Say, a sith for example, wants to use a very gruesome way of killing an opponent.
Could he not manipulate the force in a new way to cause someone to implode? Or to explode their internal organs?

Just a thought
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akari wrote:
@KageRyu: I would definately disallow that as a master. Starting with 3d in force skills is definately too high compared to how other characters start. Jedi begin their journey weak. Probably weakest among the classes. They pay for easily having the highest possible potential. Having access to a total of 9d in Force skills when they start out is simply asking for unfavorable reactions from the non-jedi playerbase.

Yes, but those are the rules as presented in all three editions of Star Wars D6. A force user may add his starting dice to his force skills. even 2D in a skill can not usually perform the most basic tasks. And the accepted guidelines for Jedi power Levels is anything below a combined 15D in the force skills is still a minor Jedi or a student.

Akari wrote:
I also don't double the costs for force skill advancement without master, I triple them. Also I make them use time to train: a week per pip.

This seriously skews the game against force users. Double cost is quite sufficient most times, as skill points are rare enough. To perform truly effective and skillful tasks with the force a character will be hard pressed until reaching around 5D in the needed skills. Until then, it's simple parlor tricks. Also, the starting D and 2xCP a force user invests in the force prevent advancement in other areas, and for some time, even a character with 3D in the force skills, will be outstripped by the other players (I've run long enough to see it happen time and again).

It is your game, and if you wish to criple Jedi that severely, it is entirely your call. I feel it detracts from the general feel of the Star Wars setting overall to so severely limit a Jedi or force user. After all, it is Star Wars, and not Star Frontiers I am playing, the force is supposed to be a thing of concern, power, and mystery.
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Akari
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
Yes, but those are the rules as presented in all three editions of Star Wars D6. A force user may add his starting dice to his force skills. even 2D in a skill can not usually perform the most basic tasks. And the accepted guidelines for Jedi power Levels is anything below a combined 15D in the force skills is still a minor Jedi or a student.


While this might be "accepted", just think about what a character with a meager sense and control of 3d and a lightsaber skill of 6d (very easy to get, even with my triple character point rule) can do with a force point: 1 parry and 5 attacks, both at 10d6 and 16d6 damage... easily enough to bring down a horde of raging Rancors! (6d+3d=9dx2=18d -2 for lightsaber combat, -1 for parry, -5 for attacks)

KageRyu wrote:
This seriously skews the game against force users. Double cost is quite sufficient most times, as skill points are rare enough. To perform truly effective and skillful tasks with the force a character will be hard pressed until reaching around 5D in the needed skills.

True. My rule however merely pressures players to find a teacher to train them and therefor only be taught the powers I want for them. As mentioned before, a teacher eliminates all the extra cost I place upon them.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akari wrote:
While this might be "accepted", just think about what a character with a meager sense and control of 3d and a lightsaber skill of 6d (very easy to get, even with my triple character point rule) can do with a force point: 1 parry and 5 attacks, both at 10d6 and 16d6 damage... easily enough to bring down a horde of raging Rancors! (6d+3d=9dx2=18d -2 for lightsaber combat, -1 for parry, -5 for attacks)

2 questions:
1) How do you get the initial 18d6 skill? 6D for lightsaber x 2 from force point is 12D.
**Edit** I see in second edition revised they changed the rules for lightsaber combat allowing sense to be added to lightsaber attacks as well as parries Rolling Eyes but, the only way to pull this off is with a force point, which shoul dbe used at a dramatic, or at least a heroic time, so in such a case, I don't see the concern still. In any other situation, a meager 3D isn't going to be enough to even use lightsaber combat as it has a difficulty of moderate for it's control roll (3D -1D for using control + sense, -all other actions =?). Come to think of it, it wouldn't even work as you suggest in this example. Control 3D x 2 = 6D -8D = -2D...how does he even raise his Lightsaber combat skill?

2) How do you get 16D damage? Force Points don't double damage rolls, only skill and attribute rolls. A lightsaber has a base 5D damage, and control at 3D ups this to 8D, which yes, is quite impressive.

Also, this definition is focusing on the Jedi as a combat character, which a Jedi is not supposed to be. And if the Jedi can not reach range with his lightsaber, his lightsaber combat abilities are quite useless. There are many rollplaying situations that a Jedi's powers could shine in that can not be simply resolved with whipping out a lightsaber and hacking away (unless you want dark side points), and in these situations even 3D is low.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing to consider. Is that jedi character who does start with 9d (3d in all three skills) only has 1D starting for all his others. So while he may have high starting force level, to where he could achieve a moderate roll a good chunk of the time, he is sucking hind tit when it comes to other things.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Another thing to consider. Is that jedi character who does start with 9d (3d in all three skills) only has 1D starting for all his others. So while he may have high starting force level, to where he could achieve a moderate roll a good chunk of the time, he is sucking hind tit when it comes to other things.


Exactly, which denotes the time and dedication the starting Jedi with high force skills has had to devote to mastery of the force to such a level. Another thing to consider, while a character with 3D in each skill could theoretically master 9 powers in each force skill, he would still most likely be incapable of meeting the difficulties for many of them. Of course, with many "other" skills, the Jedi could use Control powers such as concentration, focus, or similar to boost his rolls...as the force is his ally, and that is the purpose of being Jedi.
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