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Space vs Move
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
In "Running Space Combat" on pg. 122-123 of the 2R&E Rulebook, WEG states the following:
Quote:
Starships cover thousands of kilometers per second in open space. While they are moving much slower when orbiting planets and maneuvering through asteroid fields, their speeds are still incredible.

Rather than these use (sic) huge numbers for movement, the game uses "Space Units" to represent ship speeds and weapon ranges. The ships always move at the same proportional speeds.

Key word is "proportional." Rather than have a dozen different speeds for orbit, open space, close combat, asteroid belts and so on and so forth, WEG just gave us one speed value that represents, proportionally, how much faster one thing is than another, regardless of circumstances. If you would like to run some calculations, WEG offers the following rules of thumb on pg. 116 of the 2R&E Rulebook:
Quote:
-5 minutes to fly from orbit to a safe hyperspace jump point.

-30 minutes to fly from a planet to one of its moons.

-2 to 6 hours to fly from one planet to the nearest planet in the solar system (2 for relatively close planets, like Earth to Mars, 6 for relatively distant planets like Earth to Saturn or Earth to Uranus)

-10 to 48 hours to fly from a star to the outer limits of a star system (roughly 15 for an Earth-type system).
I paraphrased a little, but the basics are there.


But can we use "proportional" for sensor range? Theoretically yes, but only if some phenomena occur that somehow limits the sensor range like ion storms, star instability ect. But in normal situation here's the problem:
technically an A-Wing with all out speed will go out of the range of star destroyers sensor range (search mode range = 200 su) in 5 rounds - I am thinking about near orbit fight where the speeds are relatively low. But as we know 5 rounds are nowhere near to:

Quote:
-30 minutes to fly from a planet to one of its moons


So does it does it mean that the sensor range is so limited? Not likely, as we read in the rules that you can detect planets and stars and scan entire continents and hemispheres.

What would be the purpose of PA-94 long range phased tachyon detection array for the X-Wing then? Phased tachyon suggests FTL scanning and this implies massive distances like sweeping entire system for detecting all its stellar bodies or scanning light years ahead for micro hyperspace jump when searching for a new hyperspace route.


Last edited by Darklighter79 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A more realistic rule for sensors wouldn't have such a hard limit. In real life, sensor signatures tend to fade with distance, with a grey area within which a ship can still be detected, but at greater difficulty. One can either A) use a conversion formula to convert Sensor Ranges over into Point Blank, Short, Medium and Long Ranges, or B) apply Difficulty modifiers to the base range, say -5 to Difficulty if the target is less than 50% of the maximum range, and +10 if the target is over 100% but less than 200% of maximum range. I've experimented with both, but I'm currently partial to the latter.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, rather than hard and fast numerical limits on the ranges of Sensors, the better thing to do it use the values as the "full power" limit, while anything beyond those ranges has the clarity and accuracy of the sensor readings diminish.

You could use 100-150% of range listed = 1/2 Sensor rating
151-200% = 1/4 of Sensor rating
201-250% = 1/8 of Sensor rating or 1 pip, whichever is higher
251%+ = 1 pip only, unless prior value was also 1 pip, then this becomes 0.

Give bonuses to detecting based on size of things (planets and stars give bigger bonuses, compared to a snub fighter) or amount of power or energy signature the thing is giving off (a Death Star would be generating a lot more energy than a Nebulon B Frigate, which would be giving off more energy than an escape pod).

Note: The 1 pip still allows for a person to get benefit from the Sensors, otherwise it's just a basic Sensor roll and nothing more.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All propositions are good, but the core problem still remains: with the current speed ship can go out in a matter of few rounds out the sensor range (even upgraded with proposed rules) but still be relatively close if checked with the table from pg. 116 of the 2R&E Rulebook.

In this case maybe it's better to use 1 ed. rules or

Still the best scan range was Kenobi using his starfighter sensors to lock on Anakin's tracking signal. Scanned Naboo - found no trace of the signal. Extended the range of scan - found it him on Tatooine and get the quite precise location. Tatooine is actually very close to Geonosis - less than a parsec, but still it was nice sensor sweep. Wink

Not to mention gravitational scan that Kenobi used to find missing Kamino.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But are they really "going out of sensor range" when you extend sensor ranges by multiple factors?

Search range for sensors on a Victory Star Destroyer is 150 at 2D.

Using, just as an example, my system, that would be
151- 225 = 1D
226-375 = 1 pip

So a range, with augmented sensors, of 375.

Now an A-Wing with a Move of 12 could go "all out" for 48. That would take the better part of 8 rounds of going all out to get out of range of a Search sensor that still provides a bonus.

And, I would go on to say that an A-Wing burning at full speed is providing quite an energy beacon, which would provide a bonus to detecting it, and therefore extend that range even further (especially if the A-Wing was burning away from them after they detected the A-Wing. That's also assuming the Victory Star Destroyer is not chasing them, and just sitting there in one place. If the Victory is also moving in chase, the range opening is not going to be as fast.

Then the A-Wing is only opening the range at 32 a round. Now it takes almost 12 rounds, or a full minute of full burn thrusters.

And that's assuming that the Victory is also not shooting at the A-Wing while it is fleeing. There would be two rounds of a pretty impressive amount of fire on the A-Wing from the turbolasers.

So there's a lot of factors that go into the act of simply "flying away from the sensor range" of a capital ship.

And an Imperial Star Destroyer has an even further range!
500 with 1D, and 501 and beyond with 1 pip.

Even if an ISD was standing still, it would still take 10 turns at full burn to get out to a point where the ISD would only have 1D in Search.

If the ISD was moving after the fighter, make that 21 rounds!

So it's not so easy to outrun if you don't hard cap the Sensor ratings and give bonuses for things generating a fair bit of noticeable energy.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:

If the ISD was moving after the fighter, make that 21 rounds!


21 rounds period is still less than 30 minutes needed to fly from a planet to its moon. So after 21 rounds A-Wing may exit sensor range heading towards visible moon, which...will be not detected by the SD sensors being far out of range.

I thought of a different concept: considering the given ranges as a values determining the range of short range sensors like X-Wing’s PG-7u short range primary threat analysis grid. Graphical representation from X-Wing game (front/rear sensor)
X-Wing sensors

And for long range scanning use 1 ed. rules descriptive rules.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISDs are known for speed, and is considered very fast, not just very fast capital ships, but even fast ships in general.

I think it is Leia that aska if Solo is capable to outrun an imperial Star Desrtoyer, they do but it is not a slam dunk
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
ISDs are known for speed, and is considered very fast, not just very fast capital ships, but even fast ships in general.

I think it is Leia that aska if Solo is capable to outrun an imperial Star Desrtoyer, they do but it is not a slam dunk


Yes, and when we look at "fast" space move stat like in this scene at 2:53:
Flacon hyperspace Force Awakens
Check the rate at which it is closing to the planet. With this speed it would pass it in like 10-15 seconds. And I doubt it's going at twice or all-out in rpg terms. I just moves it basic if not less for slowing down. With that speed planet-moon trip would take app. 1 minute max.[/url]
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we count a grid on most galaxy maps as 20 parsec, then if the falcon had flown from tatooine to alderaan (original destination) this would be a 200 parsec distance.

how many parsec can the ship do in a day with speed x, y z etc

maybe this is a way to look at it
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My post was referring to Flacon's sublight speed after exiting hyperspace.

Hyperspace time travel, on the other hand, also changed considerably, especially after episode III and Padme & Emperor’s travel Coruscant-Mustafar (core-outer rim).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Hyperspace time travel, on the other hand, also changed considerably, especially after episode III and Padme & Emperor’s travel Coruscant-Mustafar (core-outer rim).

That presupposes that what we see on screen is happening in sequence in universe. Remember that Farseeing allows Force users to sense the future; Luke was aware of what was going to happen on Cloud City before the Falcon actually got there. RAW hyperspace times still hold up if we assume that 1) the Yoda-Sidious battle happened while Padme / Obi-wan were still en route to Mustafar, 2) Sidious sensed the danger to Vader before it happened, and 3) the Obi-wan-Vader battle happened while Sidious was in transit.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Darklighter79 wrote:
Hyperspace time travel, on the other hand, also changed considerably, especially after episode III and Padme & Emperor’s travel Coruscant-Mustafar (core-outer rim).

That presupposes that what we see on screen is happening in sequence in universe. Remember that Farseeing allows Force users to sense the future; Luke was aware of what was going to happen on Cloud City before the Falcon actually got there. RAW hyperspace times still hold up if we assume that 1) the Yoda-Sidious battle happened while Padme / Obi-wan were still en route to Mustafar, 2) Sidious sensed the danger to Vader before it happened, and 3) the Obi-wan-Vader battle happened while Sidious was in transit.


But still these events are presented in chronological order. No flashback scenes ect. No farseeing for Vader until battle with Obi was in progress.

And here's the best part: Padme leaves Coruscant at sunset (after meeting with Obi Wan in the afternoon and informing him that last time she saw Anakin was day before). At the same time (sunset) we see Emperor contacting Anakin asking about dealing with Separatists. As soon as they end their conversation Padme's ship exit hyperspace and is seen on Mustafar's sensors.

This and the fact that starfighters can also cross vast distances via hyperspace and emerge full combat ready with rested pilots suggests that travel times (at least for military and specialized crafts) are rather short. Sullust - Endor in 19 hours like in 2nd ed? Nope.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter, the events of the films are not necessarily shown to us in strict chronological order. Lucas used creative license in the editing room to sequence shots and scenes of events happening on different planets towards the best possible flow of the story in the cinematic media.

You can see evidence supporting this in the editing of some single location shot sequences. You ever notice in the Battle of Yavin that Red Leader tells Luke that he lost his starboard engine before the movie shows his starboard engine getting shot by Vader? After principle photography was long done in post-production, Lucas decided that it was more dramatic if Red Leader tells Luke to not cover him and get set-up for his attack run, and then get shot directly before he started going down and saying "Aaaaaaaahhgg!" then boom. Logically, the fairly calm dialogue would have to happen after losing his starboard engine, but Lucas felt it made a better scene with dialogue/engine blast/crash, despite it not being completely linear.

It's not as obvious with cutting scenes from difference characters in different locations, but Lucas and many directors/editors will sequence the scenes in a way that advances the story best until the characters meet back up again, despite the back-and-forth not always being in strict chronological sequence or simultaneity.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But still these events are presented in chronological order. No flashback scenes ect. No farseeing for Vader until battle with Obi was in progress.

And where was the flashback scene in ESB? We never saw Luke’s vision; we just observed that he had one.

Quote:
And here's the best part: Padme leaves Coruscant at sunset (after meeting with Obi Wan in the afternoon and informing him that last time she saw Anakin was day before). At the same time (sunset) we see Emperor contacting Anakin asking about dealing with Separatists. As soon as they end their conversation Padme's ship exit hyperspace and is seen on Mustafar's sensors.

Why does it have to be the same sunset? And just because the time sequence could be that compressed does not mean that the evidence proves that it is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Quote:
This and the fact that starfighters can also cross vast distances via hyperspace and emerge full combat ready with rested pilots suggests that travel times (at least for military and specialized crafts) are rather short. Sullust - Endor in 19 hours like in 2nd ed? Nope.

The most likely explanation in ROTJ is that the fleet jumped from Sullust to a staging point within an hour or so of Endor, and then launched their fighters. This is far more sensible - for many reasons - than having the fleet jump all the way from Sullust in a single jump.

As for the prequels, the only times we see fighters on long range trips, the pilots are Jedi, who can place themselves in Hibernation Trances to minimize consumable consumption and preserve their ready state.

It’s also important to note that a galaxy-wide dispersed guerrilla war only makes sense with slow travel times. If the galaxy can be crossed in a matter of hours, a sector can be crossed in a matter of minutes. All the Empire would need to do is station a powerful reaction force at some central location (which the Empire certainly has the resources to do), then send in light skirmishing forces to probe for a reaction, then send for reenforcements, who will arrive far faster than a base can be evacuated. A dispersed guerrilla force under such conditions can be defeated in detail. The only way it can survive is if it can hit, run, hide and repeat against a force that, while much larger, is forced to defend as much ground as possible, and must operate dispersed (with support hours or days away, assuming it can be summoned in time.

Just because the Lucasfilm story group is in charge of filling in the knowledge gaps in the SWU as we know it doesn’t mean they aren’t idiots.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Just because the Lucasfilm story group is in charge of filling in the knowledge gaps in the SWU as we know it doesn’t mean they aren’t idiots.

I think they are more likely lazy than idiots, but it's debatable which is worse.
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