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Space vs Move
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Why does it have to be the same sunset? And just because the time sequence could be that compressed does not mean that the evidence proves that it is beyond a shadow of a doubt.


No, we can assume that Anakin spent a day or more watching river of lava and Emperor did not want to disturb him.

And we can assume that Padme lied to Ben, her long time friend about seeing Anakin last day although it was no reason to do so.

Quote:
The most likely explanation in ROTJ is that the fleet jumped from Sullust to a staging point within an hour or so of Endor, and then launched their fighters. This is far more sensible - for many reasons - than having the fleet jump all the way from Sullust in a single jump.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_VI_Return_of_the_Jedi
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sanctuary_Pipeline

No confirmation of this theory in above mentioned links.
Also Lambda shuttle has no beds for rest. All the back was strike team members.

Quote:
As for the prequels, the only times we see fighters on long range trips, the pilots are Jedi, who can place themselves in Hibernation Trances to minimize consumable consumption and preserve their ready state.


Sure.
Except those pilots (Padme, Typho) who were fighter escort of Naboo cruiser in the beginning of episode II.

And how long was in TESB Star Destroyer scanning the area after Falcon's "disappearance"? Months? To fit the theory "If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now".

Also Solo mentions "we should be at Alderaan about oh-two-hundred hours" (outer rim-core), not 02:00 on Friday or Saturday. The same day.

Same for Scariff attack.

And while Finn and Rose are stuck in Canto Bight's prison, Raddus has only six hours fuel left. Wanna add some days to it for hyperspace travel? But it would not fit "critical fuel situation" the entire move was based upon.

Quote:
It’s also important to note that a galaxy-wide dispersed guerrilla war only makes sense with slow travel times. If the galaxy can be crossed in a matter of hours, a sector can be crossed in a matter of minutes. All the Empire would need to do is station a powerful reaction force at some central location (which the Empire certainly has the resources to do), then send in light skirmishing forces to probe for a reaction, then send for reenforcements, who will arrive far faster than a base can be evacuated. A dispersed guerrilla force under such conditions can be defeated in detail. The only way it can survive is if it can hit, run, hide and repeat against a force that, while much larger, is forced to defend as much ground as possible, and must operate dispersed (with support hours or days away, assuming it can be summoned in time.


That is why all rebel bases are quick and easy to evacuate in a matter of hours. There are no massive installations. Much of the equipment is portable. They need to be mobile - it's the only way to survive. Like on Yavin, Hoth or D'Qar - enemies came quite quickly.

And travel depends on the routes (aka plot device). Some are slower, some are faster. Thus, using example from real life: I may spent hours travelling just few blocks in a city center due to the heavy traffic. But using a high speed ring road, although travelling a much greater distance, I may get to my destination in few minutes.

Still Yoda manged to get from Couscant to Kamino (Rishi Maze), gather troops and get to Geonosis in quite short time, just after Windu. Were those weeks? Days?

Abrams does the same with Poe's squadron - quick travel to Starkiller base.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Just because the Lucasfilm story group is in charge of filling in the knowledge gaps in the SWU as we know it doesn’t mean they aren’t idiots.


Well, those curved slow lasers blasts in TLJ... Rolling Eyes
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible that with larger ships/fleets, you need to use main hyperspace lanes to move around in. The smaller/quicker cuts might not be large enough for a dreadnought or ISD to go through, but something smaller like a Frigate or Corvette can.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
It's possible that with larger ships/fleets, you need to use main hyperspace lanes to move around in. The smaller/quicker cuts might not be large enough for a dreadnought or ISD to go through, but something smaller like a Frigate or Corvette can.

Anything man made is going to be beyond miniscule in space. Hyperlanes could be millions of kilometers at a minimum, or a lightyear or more at maximum. At that scale, a planet is a speck of dust, and size differences between artificial objects will be beyond inconsequential.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Darklighter79

Okay, so, I had a reply written up to your above, and then my tablet decided to eat it and revert back to the initial quote template. Ugh. And now I’m too tired to do it again. Anyway, reply will be forthcoming.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
@Darklighter79

Okay, so, I had a reply written up to your above, and then my tablet decided to eat it and revert back to the initial quote template. Ugh. And now I’m too tired to do it again. Anyway, reply will be forthcoming.


Sure.
I have also found some analysis concerning Rogue One hyperspace travel issues. Here's the link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5j5zsm/rogue_one_how_fast_is_hyperspace_travel/ - in this link there are also new canon galaxy maps.

So it looks like this:

- Council rejects attack on Scarif
- Mon Mothma informs Bail to send someone to Tatooine, Bail replies he has the perfect person
- Rogue Rebels prepare the attack
- Rogue Rebels start the attack
- Tarkin is informed, alerts Vader, starts his jump
- Mon Mothma is informed, mobilizes fleet. General Raddus is ready, but C-3PO and R2-D2 are still on the ground when X-Wings take off
- Fighting on Scarif
- Rebels arrive first
- Tarkin arrives next, shoots off the dish
- Vader arrives last, cleans up, prepares boarding
- Raddus' ship is destroyed/immobilized, they recieve plans

Tantive IV gets plans, is released from the flagship, probably jumps to Tatooine


Speed of Death Star is...amazing here.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay...
Darklighter79 wrote:
No, we can assume that Anakin spent a day or more watching river of lava and Emperor did not want to disturb him.

And we can assume that Padme lied to Ben, her long time friend about seeing Anakin last day although it was no reason to do so.

Actually, it was "yesterday," but whatever. I agree with Whill's previous statement about scenes being structured for cinematic purposes, and not necessarily linear ones. I'm on the road and away from my movies at the moment, so I'm going to wait until I can make it home to expound in detail.

Quote:
No confirmation of this theory in above mentioned links.

Wookieepedia is less of a reliable primary source than it is a dumping ground for information from sources with varying degrees of reliability, which the reader is forced to sort through and draw their own conclusions.

Quote:
Also Lambda shuttle has no beds for rest. All the back was strike team members.

This presumes that WEG's Lambda deckplans are accurate and reliable, and deckplans were never WEG's strong suit. For example, their Falcon deckplans in the SW Sourcebook place a full-height corridor in a section of hull with little more than a meter of external vertical space. It also presumes that the cargo space of the Lambda can't be converted for sleeping purposes; a seating area that converts into a bunk isn't exactly high tech. For that matter, a society that has mastered gravity manipulation could just as easily design seats with variable angle gravity fields (i.e. offset-80-90 degrees from "vertical")

Quote:
Except those pilots (Padme, Typho) who were fighter escort of Naboo cruiser in the beginning of episode II.

The official explanation is that the cruiser was equipped with docking points on the leading edges of the wing that mated with the tail spindles on the N-1 fighters. And my "gravity couch" concept from above is even more easily applied in the cockpit of a starfighter.

Quote:
And how long was in TESB Star Destroyer scanning the area after Falcon's "disappearance"? Months? To fit the theory "If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now".

Assuming that, in over a thousand generations, no one managed to invent hyperbole.

Quote:
Also Solo mentions "we should be at Alderaan about oh-two-hundred hours" (outer rim-core), not 02:00 on Friday or Saturday. The same day.
Does not take into account how much time they had already spent in hyperspace. Certainly enough for Obi-wan to spend time teaching Luke the basics of a lightsaber.

Quote:
Same for Scariff attack.

The Scariff attack timeline works if we presume that Yavin and Scariff are relatively close. However, I will admit the crunched timeline here is one of the main things I dislike about Rogue One. The whole lead-up to the Alliance Fleet moving to re enforce the attack is quite ham-handed, and the gratuitous Artoo and Threepio cameo could have been inserted later on and been just as effective. Whether you believe in fast hyperspace travel times or slow ones, it's next to impossible to get Threepio and Artoo onboard the Raddus in the time available.

Quote:
And while Finn and Rose are stuck in Canto Bight's prison, Raddus has only six hours fuel left. Wanna add some days to it for hyperspace travel? But it would not fit "critical fuel situation" the entire move was based upon.

Don't even get me started on that dumpster fire of a side mission, or on how the Lucasfilm story group poured gas on the fire by having the Canto Bight be halfway across the galaxy from Crait. The sequence might've been believable had Canto Bight been somewhere in a neighboring sector. But either way, I refuse to rewrite the WEG rules just because Ruin Johnson made a movie.

Quote:
That is why all rebel bases are quick and easy to evacuate in a matter of hours. There are no massive installations. Much of the equipment is portable. They need to be mobile - it's the only way to survive. Like on Yavin, Hoth or D'Qar - enemies came quite quickly.

That's not how bases work, especially the ones carved out of solid rock or ice. Bases are where ships and equipment can undergo major repairs and maintenance that may have them sidelined for weeks or months, or for long-term medical care for badly wounded, or for planning of operations. There is also the fact that bases serve as communication hubs for local Alliance networks, and having to pull up stakes and move on a moment's notice can disrupt operations sector-wide.

As someone who works in logistics and transportation, I can assure you that the only place where bases can be packed up and moved at a moment's notice without leaving behind a lot of valuable equipment is either in the plots of badly written films or in the minds of people who don't know better.

Quote:
And travel depends on the routes (aka plot device). Some are slower, some are faster. Thus, using example from real life: I may spent hours travelling just few blocks in a city center due to the heavy traffic. But using a high speed ring road, although travelling a much greater distance, I may get to my destination in few minutes.

This supports my point just as well as yours. The Essential Atlas, for example, explained the relatively short travel time from Tatooine to Alderaan in the first film by putting Tatooine relatively close to a major hyperlane that led straight to Alderaan.

Quote:
Still Yoda managed to get from Coruscant to Kamino (Rishi Maze), gather troops and get to Geonosis in quite short time, just after Windu. Were those weeks? Days?

Okay, but where is the Rishi Maze? IIRC, the Essential Atlas placed it relatively close to Geonosis.

In addition, travel times are much more variable when it comes to Jedi, due to the Instinctive Astrogation power. Routes can be noticeably shortened by a Jedi who rolls high on Sense (and/or spends a Force Power) to arrive at the dramatically appropriate moment.

Quote:
Abrams does the same with Poe's squadron - quick travel to Starkiller base.

Abrams' structuring of the films certainly felt more rushed than the originals and prequels. This can be (at least partially) explained by thirty years worth of improved tech (higher hyperspace speeds), and by putting the planets closer together than the DisneyLucas story group would have us believe.

Ultimately, I find myself much more accepting of what we see in the new canon if I ignore the story group's ham-fisted attempts to "fill in the gaps" in our knowledge.

Quote:
Well, those curved slow lasers blasts in TLJ... Rolling Eyes

Yeah.

The only explanation I had there was that they weren't actually laser bursts, but rather concussion missiles, and the Supremacy was attempting to curve its shots around the Raddus' aft shields.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Scariff attack timeline works if we presume that Yavin and Scariff are relatively close


And we should assume the same for Jedha. And Mustafar. And Eadu. And so on. But official maps show otherwise as official site
And the DS hyperdrive is (or should I say was) x4? As the rebel commando action was no many-day siege in any way, and cannot be regarded as anything else and quick hit-and-run infiltration mission, we can clearly see that Empire and Alliance are ready to quick counterattacks basically anywhere in the galaxy from any destination. So either we accept it or:
Quote:
refuse to rewrite the WEG rules just because XXXX made a movie


Still, I do not negate in anyway longer time trips. I believe that most of non-military vessels should have hyperdrive x3 or even more (given what we see onscreen). Anakin and Padme slept and ate during travel on a refugee ship. Jar Jar slept on Amidala ship during travel Tatooine-Coruscant. But I feel these are around 10-24 hours tops – to fit the Empire’s: “If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now”.

Quote:
The only explanation I had there was that they weren't actually laser bursts, but rather concussion missiles, and the Supremacy was attempting to curve its shots around the Raddus' aft shields.


Too bad nobody came up with an idea of sending some destroyers to micro-jump and came up in front and sideways of the chased rebel cruiser. Then they could launch fighters and have rebels in crossfire.
Hey, but that just me, with 2D knowledge and no tactics skill Wink
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Last edited by Darklighter79 on Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's different.

With Solo, we now know that hyperspace fuel is expensive. So why do spend precious and limited hyperdrive fuel when the end result is inevitable?

Also, a quicker military victory wouldn't be as morale-sapping as storing the sensor readings of the relentless pummeling of the ship over time, and then later on use it in a Riefenstahl-esque propaganda movie. Similar to how the Starkiller base was used on non-military targets at least partially as a propaganda move.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
refuse to rewrite the WEG rules just because XXXX made a movie

I'll take this option, thank you very much. I have been increasingly underwhelmed by Star Wars under Disney, so I'm taking a two-fold approach of 1) only altering the RAW if I can't come up with a plausible excuse as to why the RAW still applies, and 2) ignoring conflicting information coming out of the story group as needs be. For example, if short travel times in Rogue One can be explained by having events occur in relatively close proximity, yet the story group chooses to put planets on opposite sides of the galaxy, I will simply ignore the story group.

Quote:
Still, I do not negate in anyway longer time trips. I believe that most of non-military vessels should have hyperdrive x3 or even more (given what we see onscreen). Anakin and Padme slept and ate during travel on a refugee ship. Jar Jar slept on Amidala ship during travel Tatooine-Coruscant. But I feel these are around 10-24 hours tops – to fit the Empire’s: “If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now”.

I'm okay with there being some short duration trips; WEG was pretty clear about that, too, with the caveat that most of those short duration trips occur because of proximity to well-traveled major trade routes. The new canon seems to make the assumption that all jumps are short duration, even those that are literally trans-galactic, and even those where the duration could be explained by reduced distance, the story group seems hell-bent on proving otherwise. There is no reason that every Star Wars film must encompass the entire galaxy as its setting.

Quote:
Too bad nobody came up with an idea of sending some destroyers to micro-jump and came up in front and sideways of the chased rebel cruiser. Then they could launch fighters and have rebels in crossfire.
Hey, but that just me, with 2D knowledge and no tactics skill Wink

More proof of Ruin Johnson's 14D skill level in Suck.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.. I thought, with you consistently admonishing me for sticking to RAW when film evidence shows otherwise, you'd be MORE inclined to go with whats on Screen before the books..
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wow.. I thought, with you consistently admonishing me for sticking to RAW when film evidence shows otherwise, you'd be MORE inclined to go with whats on Screen before the books..

That was pre-Disney. As I said above, a guerilla war on a galactic scale doesn't work with short trans-galactic travel times. Imperial Navy units have to be relatively isolated, with even reinforcements in the same sector being hours or more away. Otherwise, the Empire could just concentrate overwhelmingly powerful fleet units in central locations, then just send out thousands of recon corvettes to scout every system in the galaxy. If they find something, they report the location back to the heavy units, who can then deploy a rapid reaction force faster than the base can evacuate.

I don't mind calling WEG wrong when they're wrong, but they got this one right.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If they find something, they report the location back to the heavy units, who can then deploy a rapid reaction force faster than the base can evacuate.


Wait, do you quote TESB script here? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
As I said above, a guerilla war on a galactic scale doesn't work with short trans-galactic travel times


Well, in Star Wars logic+Imperial Forces do not come together. Why loose time on ground assault on Hoth when all you need to do is to drag some asteroid at speed of 0,1 c and hurl it towards the surface just outside rebel shield? Blast wave would do the rest.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
If they find something, they report the location back to the heavy units, who can then deploy a rapid reaction force faster than the base can evacuate.


Wait, do you quote TESB script here? Rolling Eyes

Always nice to participate in a respectful debate.

The Death’s Head Squadron is the exception that proves the rule. It was the largest single fleet formation in the Empire prior to Endor, with the intended purpose of standing in for the Death Star, with sufficient firepower to overwhelm the defenses of any system in the Empire. Add to that the fact that one of the galaxy’s only two Sith Lords in command of it, and that that Sith Lord’s command decisions proved essential in guiding the fleet to Hoth in the first place. What do you think would’ve happened if Ozzel had made the call on whether or not to go to Hoth? It took a powerful Sith Lord’s intuition to make that call, and that only after sending out thousands of probe droids to generate leads.

Hoth was a high-level target, being sought by literally the most powerful fleet in the galaxy, under the direction of a man who was both uniquely suited and uniquely motivated to find it.

This isn’t something that could be duplicated on a galactic scale.

Additionally, the timeline in ESB is sufficiently vague (Lucas never specified how far the Death’s Head Squadron had to travel, nor exactly how long the evacuation had been going when they arrived) that it could be interpreted either way. In retrospect, being deliberately vague and allowing viewers to draw their own conclusions was likely the wiser approach.

Quote:
Well, in Star Wars logic+Imperial Forces do not come together. Why loose time on ground assault on Hoth when all you need to do is to drag some asteroid at speed of 0,1 c and hurl it towards the surface just outside rebel shield? Blast wave would do the rest.

Kind of hard to gather intel and prisoners to interrogate from a crater, but what do I know.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Additionally, the timeline in ESB is sufficiently vague (Lucas never specified how far the Death’s Head Squadron had to travel, nor exactly how long the evacuation had been going when they arrived) that it could be interpreted either way.


We only know it was:
Quote:
Well, forget the heavy equipment. There's plenty of time to get the smaller modules on the transports

and before any transport managed to lift off.

But analyzing only what we see on the screen, without adding to it any non-movie theories, these speeds are beyond that was presented in rpg books, novels, and games.
In d6 we have weeks and months. In d20 it is just d6 days x hyperdrive multiplier (distance does not matter). I do not know how it is in FFG, but read some opinions that it's still too long, especially in the context of Rogue One (this one takes it to a new level, or maybe confirms what we suspected earlier, based on previous movies).
In the old databank on the official site, there was a change also. From days and weeks, to hours and minutes? (do not remember exactly) - but it is no longer available (maybe somebody has some screenshots?)

Quote:

Kind of hard to gather intel and prisoners to interrogate from a crater, but what do I know.

Easier than from Yavin's 4 asteroid field that Imperials wanted to create. That's for sure. Tarkin's tactics. Wink

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Edit.

Found some analysis of hyperspace travel in Star Wars different editions
Regarding WotC version = it's not the latest "Saga Edition" but
"Revised Core" (2nd WotC edition)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
But analyzing only what we see on the screen, without adding to it any non-movie theories, these speeds are beyond that was presented in rpg books, novels, and games.

The problem there is that the games (WEG at least) had a lot more variety, in that some jumps could take hours, while others could take days or weeks (or months in the extreme). The general presumption was that the shorter jumps were either A) in close proximity to a well-traveled major trade route that allowed them to cover the distance much more quickly, or B) relatively close together, with the opposite being true of long-duration jumps.

The problem with the new canon is that they treat every hyperspace jump like its a short-duration jump, and even those that could be explained away by putting the planets relatively close together get placed on opposite sides of the galaxy when the Lucasfilm story group publishes its Visual Dictionaries.

As I said, it gets a lot easier to reconcile the old with the new if you just ignore the story group. Even then, it's still nowhere near perfect.


Quote:
Easier than from Yavin's 4 asteroid field that Imperials wanted to create. That's for sure. Tarkin's tactics. Wink

Again, you're arguing the exception, not the rule. If your goal is to locate the Rebel Alliance's hidden main base (Yavin), it does you no good to blow up the Rebel Sector HQ you just located. This is because, while the destruction of said base may disrupt Alliance operations within that sector, it doesn't bring the Empire any closer to locating the Alliance's main base. So you send down troops for ground assault, supported by TIE fighters and orbital bombardment from a star destroyer, with the goal of at least trying to capture the base intact so as to generate additional leads for Imperial Intel or the ISB to chase down in the hopes of finding additional Rebel operatives or facilities.

Yavin was different; there was no higher value Alliance target that might be located by capturing it intact. Tarkin's intent was to make a political statement by wiping out the Alliance's leadership in one blow.
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