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star destroyer strike group
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:07 pm    Post subject: star destroyer strike group Reply with quote

was in a discussion about star destroyers and the talk of star destroyers has me wondering. on earth we have carrier strike groups aka carrier battle groups. ive seen some references to something similar in star wars in regards to star destroyers. but i cant recall exact numbers. now a carrier strike group "is composed of roughly 7,500 personnel, an aircraft carrier, at least one cruiser, a destroyer squadron of at least two destroyers and/or frigates, and a carrier air wing of 65 to 70 aircraft. A carrier strike group also, on occasion, includes submarines, attached logistics ships and a supply ship." so the big question is, whats all included in a star destroyer strike/battle group?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking in the Imperial source book, it seems the smallest you get is a battle line above a single ship//

Quote:
To get a quick understanding of the organization
of the Navy, use the following reference.
Navy organization is completely different
than the Army's method while the
Imperial Army has a "baseline" Order of Battle
(OB), with carefully classified exceptions to
this OB, Navy command simply assigns the
most appropriate force to the most appropriate
mission. Therefore, while the listings below
are "theory," Naval mission assignments
in practice often bear little resemblence to
the OB.
Command. A single ship command, commanded
by a captain.
Line. Theoretically a unit of four ships,
commanded by a captain of the line. In practice,
lines vary from as few as one ship to as
many as 20. A line is normally the smallest
unit used in space battles.
Squadron. Normally has 14 to 60 ships,
commanded by an admiral. Normally the largest
force of ships assigned to a single system.
Systems Force. Strength varies by mission
profile: force superiority units have three
battle squadrons and a light squadron, for up
to 90 ships. Commanded by a systems admiral
(also known as a commodore). A systems
force is responsible for several systems.
Fleet. The force deployed to an entire
sector. These also vary immensely: a superiority
fleet has four system forces, two force
superiority units and two force escort units,
with six Star Destroyers and 390 other combat
starships. Commanded by a fleet admiral.
Sector Group. The total of Naval strength
in a sector. Commanded by a high admiral.
Can contain at least 2,400 ships (of which,
1,600 are combat starships, including 24 Star
Destroyers).

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imperial Navy's order of battle lists a Battle Squadron as 1 Star Destroyer, 2 Attack Lines and a Pursuit Line.

An Attack Line is 3 to 6 ships (3 if Heavy Cruisers or larger, 6 if Light Cruisers or Frigates)

A Pursuit Line is 4 to 10 ships, usually Light Cruisers, but sometimes smaller ships like Corvettes.

While the Attack Line specifies Heavy Cruisers or larger, I would fudge a little and make it Medium Cruisers, so that the line can be composed of Strike Cruisers, and the high-speed Carrack is a perfect fit for the Pursuit Line's mission.

My reasoning is that the only listed Heavy Cruiser is the Dreadnought. With its Space of 4, it would be hard pressed to keep up with a Space 6 Imperial Star Destroyer. 6 Strike Cruisers and 4 Carracks make a good escort force, with the Carracks able to serve as forward scouts as well as Pursuit ships, and the Strikes' powerful weapons and TIE complements (1 squadron each) are good backup for the ISD.

In addition, the Strike can be reconfigured for specific missions, such as an escort carrier hauling 3 squadrons of TIEs.

As far as UNREP, there isn't really anything official that can keep up with a taskforce with a minimum Space of 6. In the short term, the ISD itself can serve as an UNREP platform, much as carriers and battleships do in the real world. More comprehensive resupply would be handled by a separate convoy of transports with frigate or corvette escorts.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OR heading back to a friendly port!

Though tha gives me an idea for a module.. The pc's ship is tasked with locating a lead ISD in a group hunting the rebel main facility down, and wait till it is having to 'Unrep' the smaller ships in its support fleet, and stage a hit on it..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
OR heading back to a friendly port!

That would depend on the kind of mission to which the ships are assigned. A Star Destroyer task force on, say, a blockade assignment, cant just up and return to base.

If anything, UNREP in the SWU is a conceptual mix of standard UNREP and the coaling stations of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. A mix of stationary supply bases and supply convoys on a series of pre-scheduled rendezvous routes with the supply bases as hubs. In fact, the Ord planets (Ordinance/Regional Depot) are probably just that. The supply bases would, in turn, be resupplied by the big FSCV mega-transports.

Quote:
Though tha gives me an idea for a module.. The pc's ship is tasked with locating a lead ISD in a group hunting the rebel main facility down, and wait till it is having to 'Unrep' the smaller ships in its support fleet, and stage a hit on it..

Makes sense. In fact, the EU is filled with mention of Rebel attacks on convoys, with little mention of exactly what those convoys do. Any major military presence is going to require a lot of logistics; even a fast underway replenishment vessel operating with a Star Destroyer task force is going to run out of supplies pretty quickly, and will itself have to be replenished with the supplies it passes off to other ships. Hitting the convoys that supply the Star Destroyers is a much more viable option than attacking the SD itself; hit your enemy where he is weak.

This got me thinking about the details of UNREP in space, as in how ships actually, physically transfer supplies across. Actually docking with another ship while underway would be extremely hazardous, but a possible option is found in Heir to the Empire. The Wild Karrde uses a Force Tube, a tube of air enclosed in a force field, to allow Luke to space walk over from his X-Wing without using a space suit.

I see something similar as useful here. An UNREP ship would move in next to the destroyer / cruiser / frigate / whatever, then the two ships would lock onto each other with tractor beams (eliminating the need for the precision station-keeping required by modern UNREP), then project Force Tubes across to establish a conduit for the transfer of physical supplies. Combining it with a tractor field to keep supplies moving. Fuel or other bulk material would likely still require a transfer tube of some sort, but if anything, that would be more conventional than a Force Tube...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More than likely, they shuttle stuff across..
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wildfire
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That or light freighters and a hard dock airlock to airlock, For SD's just bring a freighter in like the Tantive IV hard dock and unload.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
More than likely, they shuttle stuff across..

Boring.

Plus, if the real world analogy holds, using shuttles would be limited by the cargo capacity of the shuttles in question. On top of that, you have turn-around time at either end (loading and unloading) plus half the shuttles' flight time will be spent deadheading (empty cargo bay) or with minimal loads. VERTREP (Vertical Replenishment) is in use with most navies, but bulk transfer of cargos is done far more efficiently by ship-to-ship transfer.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides, if you want to build an adventure module, a Star Destroyer launching and landing shuttle craft is not going to be any more vulnerable than any other time.

But if it is in a mutual tractor lock with a supply ship, with its battle shields down and transferring munitions or hypermatter out in the open in close proximity...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it doesn't have official WEG stats, many of the Acclamator Assault Ships from AOTC were converted into armed cargo transports by the Empire post-Clone Wars. The homebrew stats on the Holocron give it a Space of 6, which means it can keep up with the task force, and if you strip out the troop transport capacity in trade for cargo, it can carry over 500,000 metric tons (although the stat block on Wookieepedia still lists it as carrying 16,000 troops as well, so the numbers may be suspect). It's well armed and actually has the best anti-starfighter defenses of any official Imperial naval vessel but the Lancer.

If you're looking for an official ship to serve as an UNREP platform for an Imperial Battle Squadron, the Acclamator has a lot to recommend it.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
While it doesn't have official WEG stats, many of the Acclamator Assault Ships from AOTC were converted into armed cargo transports by the Empire post-Clone Wars. The homebrew stats on the Holocron give it a Space of 6, which means it can keep up with the task force, and if you strip out the troop transport capacity in trade for cargo, it can carry over 500,000 metric tons (although the stat block on Wookieepedia still lists it as carrying 16,000 troops as well, so the numbers may be suspect). It's well armed and actually has the best anti-starfighter defenses of any official Imperial naval vessel but the Lancer.

If you're looking for an official ship to serve as an UNREP platform for an Imperial Battle Squadron, the Acclamator has a lot to recommend it.


I see what you mean about it being questionable.

According to this page http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acclamator-class_assault_ship/Legends on the Wookipedia the Acclamator carries even more.

Passengers
16,000 clone troopers and support personnel (No idea how many make up support personnel in the SWU, but IRL I've seen the ratio of support personnel to combat troops range from 10:1 to 30:1)

Cargo capacity
320 speeders
80 Low Altitude Assault Transport
c. 66 LAAT/i
c. 14 LAAT/c
48 All Terrain Tactical Enforcer
36 Self-Propelled Heavy Artillery
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
According to this page on the Wookieepedia the Acclamator carries even more.

It's important to note that the Wookieepedia article does not mention a cargo capacity in metric tons. The 2,000 metric tons listed in the D6 stats on the Holocron isn't based on anything official. As such, I'd say that it doesn't carry "even more", but rather that it sacrifices much of what the Acclamator carries in favor of cargo space.

If I were to stat it, I'd probably go with 1,200-1,500 passengers; some will be troops, primarily for counter-boarding defense, as an armed cargo ship is going to be used in places where it needs to be armed and well defended. For cargo capacity, I'd clear out the entire vehicle complement, in exchange for 500,000 - 600,000 metric tons of cargo. The small craft complement would be a mix of cargo barges and utility shuttles, with maybe a squadron of TIEs for self-defense (although these might be on temporary assignment only, depending on the mission). I'd keep the landing gear (greatly simplifying cargo loading and unloading from a planet), and add in tractor beam projectors and the force tube projectors I suggested above for deep-space cargo transfer.

Quote:
(No idea how many make up support personnel in the SWU, but IRL I've seen the ratio of support personnel to combat troops range from 10:1 to 30:1)

The Sector Group Organization chapter states that much of the support functions are provided by droids, which aren't included in the unit numbers. Clerical droids, cooks, messengers, etc, would all be mechanicals who aren't officially listed as support personnel. I use the numbers in the ImpSB as a baseline when projecting troop capacity for my homebrew stats, and 16,000 troops is about right for a standard Imperial Army battlegroup (division equivalent).
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
ForbinProject wrote:
According to this page on the Wookieepedia the Acclamator carries even more.

It's important to note that the Wookieepedia article does not mention a cargo capacity in metric tons. The 2,000 metric tons listed in the D6 stats on the Holocron isn't based on anything official. As such, I'd say that it doesn't carry "even more", but rather that it sacrifices much of what the Acclamator carries in favor of cargo space.

If I were to stat it, I'd probably go with 1,200-1,500 passengers; some will be troops, primarily for counter-boarding defense, as an armed cargo ship is going to be used in places where it needs to be armed and well defended. For cargo capacity, I'd clear out the entire vehicle complement, in exchange for 500,000 - 600,000 metric tons of cargo. The small craft complement would be a mix of cargo barges and utility shuttles, with maybe a squadron of TIEs for self-defense (although these might be on temporary assignment only, depending on the mission). I'd keep the landing gear (greatly simplifying cargo loading and unloading from a planet), and add in tractor beam projectors and the force tube projectors I suggested above for deep-space cargo transfer.

Quote:
(No idea how many make up support personnel in the SWU, but IRL I've seen the ratio of support personnel to combat troops range from 10:1 to 30:1)

The Sector Group Organization chapter states that much of the support functions are provided by droids, which aren't included in the unit numbers. Clerical droids, cooks, messengers, etc, would all be mechanicals who aren't officially listed as support personnel. I use the numbers in the ImpSB as a baseline when projecting troop capacity for my homebrew stats, and 16,000 troops is about right for a standard Imperial Army battlegroup (division equivalent).


I was thinking along the same lines as you, but for a different purpose. I was thinking this would be a great ship to be repurposed as a colony ship by an independent government or corporation.

Lose the military ground vehicles for civ vehicles, prefab buildings, grains, supplies, etc.

Swap out the LAAT's for one or two squadrons of starfighters for colony defense and the rest as small shuttles/freighters.

The acclamater could serve as the colonies main defense and the source of the parent government or corporations authority and in case of disaster the main evacuation vehicle.

And there is precedent. The empire sold old vic SD's to the CSA so why not a few acclamaters.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree, but for the purposes of this conversation, a colony ship is unlikely to be included in an Imperial Navy battle squadron.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The Imperial Navy's order of battle lists a Battle Squadron as 1 Star Destroyer, 2 Attack Lines and a Pursuit Line.

An additional note on this is that this is the listing for a standard Battle Squadron. The Imperial Sourcebook allows for standard units to be expanded and reinforced by other ships. In this case, an expanded Battle Squadron can include a Recon Line (2-4 Light Cruisers modified with enhanced sensors and stealth), 2 more Attack Lines and an additional Pursuit Line.

I've made up homebrew for a Recon-modified Carrack if you're interested...
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