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New Perception Skill: Discernment
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: New Perception Skill: Discernment Reply with quote

I've been thinking about this one for a while.

Discernment

Time Taken: One round or longer.

Specializations: Specific skill being resisted (Con, Persuasion, etc.)

Discernment is a measurement of a character's ability to see through attempts by others to manipulate them. A person with this skill may not be all that adept at conning or manipulating others, but is quite good at spotting it when someone tries it on him.

In game terms, Discernment is treated as a reaction skill to resist Con and Persuasion attempts (as well as Gambling and Intimidation, under the right circumstances). This does not mean that the character using Discernment must automatically reject these attempts, merely that he recognizes what the other person is attempting to do.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Would someone who had this skill AND say Con, get the higher of the 2 to resist, or just this, THEN the con?
What about if they have the body language skil (or are a loordian?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Interesting. Would someone who had this skill AND say Con, get the higher of the 2 to resist, or just this, THEN the con?

Either / or, I think. I mostly wrote this up for characters who aren't interested in putting Dice into Con or Persuasion, but want to be able to roll more than just their attribute to resist.

Quote:
What about if they have the body language skil (or are a loordian?

Aren't they one and the same, with the Body Language skill being found only on the Lorrdian template?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering how good the Lorrdians are with this, I'd probably make what they do an Advanced skill with this as a prerequisite.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Quote:
What about if they have the body language skil (or are a loordian?

Aren't they one and the same, with the Body Language skill being found only on the Lorrdian template?


There is a Profession skill: Body languages, someone adapted from one of the AJs iirc, that required you to learn it From a lordian..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:

Quote:
What about if they have the body language skil (or are a loordian?

Aren't they one and the same, with the Body Language skill being found only on the Lorrdian template?


There is a Profession skill: Body languages, someone adapted from one of the AJs iirc, that required you to learn it From a lordian..

Too specific, IMO. There is more to sensing someone's motivation than just body language. What they say and how they say it is a factor as well.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought willpower covered this (discernment).

Might need to be a skill rolled in secret, though.

Also, for persuasion (and possibly other skills) those skills only work against NPCs (a PC is never compelled to do something based on a persuasion roll made against him), so it might be a hard sell for a PC.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I always thought willpower covered this (discernment).

Might need to be a skill rolled in secret, though.

Also, for persuasion (and possibly other skills) those skills only work against NPCs (a PC is never compelled to do something based on a persuasion roll made against him), so it might be a hard sell for a PC.


Good call, willpower is used to resist persuasion, but that's only a PC vs NPC issue anyway.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
There is a Profession skill: Body languages, someone adapted from one of the AJs iirc, that required you to learn it From a lordian..

Again, too specific. Lorrdians aren't the only ones who can figure out when someone is trying to put one over on them; they just happen to be really really good at it. This skill is supposed to represent that for the rest of the galaxy.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I always thought willpower covered this (discernment).

Willpower is more internally oriented, in that you are exercising control of yourself and your emotions. Any skill that involves reading other people's words and actions to see what they are really up to would need to fall under Perception, not Knowledge. A Willpower roll might be warranted after a successful Discernment roll, though.

Quote:
Also, for persuasion (and possibly other skills) those skills only work against NPCs (a PC is never compelled to do something based on a persuasion roll made against him), so it might be a hard sell for a PC.

This makes no sense to me. By what process are PCs exempt from the manipulations of in-universe characters? Is it really fair to say that the greatest con-man in the galaxy will take a pass on conning one particular group of randoms just because he subconsciously senses they aren't under the control of the GM? In D&D, they have spells like Charm that still affect player characters, and the player has to bite the bullet and deal with it.

And how far does this go? Is a PC exempt from an Affect Mind attempt from Palpatine or Vader, all on account of them being a PC? I say players should roleplay the results of failed rolls in any skill, whether it's getting shot because they rolled badly on Dodge, or getting talked into a bad situation because they failed an opposed roll against a Con. Granted, there are some bugs that need to be ironed out, first, particularly the Difficulty of such a roll, but still...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: New Perception Skill: Discernment Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've been thinking about this one for a while.

Discernment

Time Taken: One round or longer.

Specializations: Specific skill being resisted (Con, Persuasion, etc.)

Discernment is a measurement of a character's ability to see through attempts by others to manipulate them. A person with this skill may not be all that adept at conning or manipulating others, but is quite good at spotting it when someone tries it on him.

In game terms, Discernment is treated as a reaction skill to resist Con and Persuasion attempts (as well as Gambling and Intimidation, under the right circumstances). This does not mean that the character using Discernment must automatically reject these attempts, merely that he recognizes what the other person is attempting to do.

Some of us talked about discerning deception a bit a couple years back.

I do like the idea of a separate Perception skill for that, but I'm still thinking that if I went that route I would probably expand its purpose a bit and have it be more general like Discern Motive. Not just seeing through the lies and persuasion for what they are, but discerning the motive behind it which is sometimes more difficult.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

This makes no sense to me. By what process are PCs exempt from the manipulations of in-universe characters? Is it really fair to say that the greatest con-man in the galaxy will take a pass on conning one particular group of randoms just because he subconsciously senses they aren't under the control of the GM? In D&D, they have spells like Charm that still affect player characters, and the player has to bite the bullet and deal with it.


I agree, giving pc's an immunity to being persuaded by NPCs in that manner, is stupid, but it was how the rules were wrote out.. PC's make the call In character, not just by dice rolls.. BUT note they only had that happen with persuasion and iirc con. NOT bargaining, seduction, or intimidate..
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: New Perception Skill: Discernment Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Some of us talked about discerning deception a bit a couple years back.

Missed that one somehow. I'll have to give it a closer look...

Quote:
I do like the idea of a separate Perception skill for that, but I'm still thinking that if I went that route I would probably expand its purpose a bit and have it be more general like Discern Motive. Not just seeing through the lies and persuasion for what they are, but discerning the motive behind it which is sometimes more difficult.

My intention was to make something along the lines of the Sense Motive skill from D&D, so I wouldn't be averse to expanding this skill to include something like that. It could even be left as-is, with the Discern Motive option happening if you beat the opposing Con/Persuasion roll by a certain amount or higher.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I agree, giving pc's an immunity to being persuaded by NPCs in that manner, is stupid, but it was how the rules were wrote out.. PC's make the call In character, not just by dice rolls.. BUT note they only had that happen with persuasion and iirc con. NOT bargaining, seduction, or intimidate..

Seduction? Must be a Sparks addition; I'd see that more as a specialization of Persuasion.

As to the rest; that's pretty much my point, that it depends too much on the players being good roleplayers. AFAIAC, any in-universe situation that relies on the player's mental faculties and not the characters is metagaming. I say base it on the character's perceptions and knowledge, then award extra CP for good roleplaying if the player allows the dice to lead the character, even if into situations the player would rather avoid.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course that's a double edged sword:

Many GMs want to subject PCs to unfortunate circumstances based on the results of a die roll even when the player knows something that would allow his character to avoid the scenario (even if the character doesn't know).

On the other hand (as we've discussed with skills like tactics, for example), there are times when the character should know things that the player (and even the GM) don't know, but since the player can't come up with the idea, the character can't benefit from the CPs dumped into a skill that the GM doesn't even have (IRL) so doesn't know how to arbitrate the results of the roll.

I'd say, if we want to play the "dice dictate" card, then we need to play both sides of it:

If the player (for example) out rolls the NPC general in tactics, then the players side wins the war/battle/fight automatically, regardless of how the NPC's "player" (i.e. GM) feels about it.

Likewise, a player might do an awesome job roleplaying a persuasion attempt, but then he botches his skill roll, so he still fails. The player's persuasiveness was irrelevant to the in-game results. On the flip side, if the player sucks at his persuasion roleplaying, but explodes the wild die 10 times, his "because I said so" must compel Palpatine to do whatever it is he has requested/demanded, etc.

My position is the player characteristics should have no bearing on the in-game results, EVEN if that means that the character succeeds where the player fails (for example, if the character should know something that the player would never even think of, then it is GM's responsibility to inform the player of what his character should reasonably know, even if the player doesn't know that his character knows it).

However, if we want to make "roleplaying" a factor in interaction skills, then I say, it's up to the GM to convince the player (by way of in-character roleplaying) to go along with whatever it is that the persuasion roll was supposed to simulate. In other words, put the player in the character's position so that the player is actually convinced that he got a good deal or that he's making the best possible choice, etc. After all, the players already bare that responsibility with respect to many of the knowledge and perception based skills that a character can get.

Or do you guys allow a player to simply say, "I convince Darth Vader to release me unharmed to a safe place of my choosing." And then let the "persuasion" roll dictate results?
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