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MrNexx
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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) |
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| Error wrote: |
It's kind of the point of a flashbang that you don't take damage (unless it detonates against your skin). It's light and sound, that's it. There's no DC for the "damage" of light or sound unless someone has homebrewed it or made a large light source into some kind of radiant weapon.
With a flashbang you don't take 4D or 2D or any die code worth of damage; you are either affected by it or not. It's up to the GM to consider things like range when assessing penalties. |
But I suggested using damage and resistance as a modelling system for effects... a set of damage against which you roll resistance. While your new wording is better (less confusing than the first), it still feels counter-intuitive for a success on the attribute roll to be what damns you, in this case, while using an attribute to figure the damage code feels natural.
Approaching it from that angle, flashbangs do 3D+Target's Perception Stun damage. Suddenly, you have almost exactly what you're looking for... a powerful grenade that will blind people for a few seconds (normal stun penalties) or knock them unconscious, which affects those who have high Perceptions more than those who do not. It works within the standard mechanics, rather than creating a novel mechanic for a singular object.
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Error
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | But I suggested using damage and resistance as a modelling system for effects... a set of damage against which you roll resistance. While your new wording is better (less confusing than the first), it still feels counter-intuitive for a success on the attribute roll to be what damns you, in this case, while using an attribute to figure the damage code feels natural. |
I know that it feels counter-intuitive, but I purposefully designed this version of a flashbang to turn high Perception scores into a liability. This is exactly the way it would be in verisimilitude. An alien with huge, sensitive ears and big, taking-it-all-in eyes could be completely incapacitated by a flashbang, if we're looking at it from that angle. Such beings end up with high PER DC's naturally, and flashbangs are designed to exploit such weaknesses (though real-world ones instead exploit the fragility of only human vision and audition). That is exactly what mine does.
Just because it is a nonstandard "way to get there" and may be uncomfortable at first does not mean the mechanic isn't functional. I've sat in on lots of game design meetings, and I can tell you that the amount of conceptual (and functional) design space in the D6 system is immense. However, WEG has stopped short on certain occasions of introducing such complexity because it "feels weird" to players. I have no such qualms about it, however, though I can already hear the "Why would I be penalized for winning a roll?" question (though I hope the players you know aren't just patently stupid and really, truly, can't understand).
| MrNexx wrote: | | Approaching it from that angle, flashbangs do 3D+Target's Perception Stun damage. Suddenly, you have almost exactly what you're looking for... a powerful grenade that will blind people for a few seconds (normal stun penalties) or knock them unconscious, which affects those who have high Perceptions more than those who do not. It works within the standard mechanics, rather than creating a novel mechanic for a singular object. |
For me, such reversals of "what should be rolled against what to achieve which effect(s)" are not novel and are a natural extension of any dice-based system. I use other types of them when it is appropriate. Some GM's don't like using DC's and instead prefer "hard numbers" for determining things like durations of effects; again, this is not me. The whole point of having dice is that they introduce the element of randomness to the game. I even take issue periodically with the "very easy = 5, easy = 10, moderate = 15" system. It makes sense in some situations, but in others, where you are rolling against a dynamic element that is not another character (e.g. this grenade), rolling against very easy/easy/etc. makes less sense than rolling against dice. But I addmittedly dumbed it down for everyone so they could grasp it all in one, thirty-second read.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) |
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| Error wrote: |
Just because it is a nonstandard "way to get there" and may be uncomfortable at first does not mean the mechanic isn't functional. I've sat in on lots of game design meetings, and I can tell you that the amount of conceptual (and functional) design space in the D6 system is immense. |
I didn't say it was non-functional... I said it was awkward and counter-intuitive. It raises the "Why am I penalized for succeeding at the check" question.
| Error wrote: | | For me, such reversals of "what should be rolled against what to achieve which effect(s)" are not novel and are a natural extension of any dice-based system. I use other types of them when it is appropriate. |
"Reversals of the standard way of doing things" are novel. It's pretty much the definition of novel.
"Succeed at Perception and you are hurt" also violates one of the core design principles of SWD6... "Pick a difficulty number. If the character's skill roll is equal or higher, she succeeds."... in this case, rolling higher than the difficulty means you fail. It raises questions about the effect of the Wild Die... if I roll a "complication" on a roll I want to fail, is that a good thing, or a bad thing?
Which gets me back to using the target's Perception in a damage code. It, too, is novel... one's own Strength is frequently used in damage, but I don't know of any time the opponent's Strength is. But this novelty doesn't simultaneously violate a core design principle of the game... that a player rolling well has succeeded. Using the damage mechanics also allows for degrees of success, since they have those built in... someone who barely fails will get a lesser penalty, those who greatly fail will get a greater.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Flashbang Conversion (by Error) |
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| Error wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Why not make it say 4d rounds.. that way you can easily get into the minutes time frame |
I decided to stay with 2D rounds because more pretty much means "will not be any help this combat," whereas with 2D there's a chance of it wearing off pretty quickly and the affected PC can rejoin the battle. Sitting watching is no fun! |
They are also out of combat and just sit around watching if the enemy stuns them out cold/knock them out via brawling damage etc..
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Error
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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What do you guys think of something like this:
Smoke Pellets
Model: Homemade smoke pellets
Type: Impact-detonated personal smokescreen
Skill:: Grenade
Time to Use: One round
Cost: 300 credits for the materials to make 50
Availability:: 2 (materials)
Difficulty:: Easy
Blast Radius: 2m, variable (see below)
Damage: n/a
Effect: An instant half-globe of smoke with a diameter of 2m appears with its equatorial center at the users feet (if thrown there)*. Each extra pellet used in a single instance increases the diameter of it by 1m, to a maximum of 5m. The smoke rises 1m per round, and spreads overhead, though it remains thick where it was detonated until it dissipates (2D+2 rounds if indoors, 1D+2 if rounds in large room, 1D rounds if outdoors). Visual Search skill rolls made in the smoke happen at a -3D penalty in daylight, at -4D in interior/twilight/low light and -5D in complete darkness.
Game Notes: The skill to make smoke pellets is both TEC Demolitions and (A) Explosives (meaning either would grant the ability to make them, which is moderate, and thse two skills would be rolled together to make smoke pellets).
* Obviously PC's will throw them elsewhere, I'm sure it'd be handled similarly.
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Last edited by Error on Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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While its clear that the OP has a specific intent, I'm just going to throw this out there. Not trying to be contrary, just adding perspective..
The perception attribut is SO uch more that sensory accuity.
Also, accuity is NOT synonomous with sensitivity to stimuli.
Every year, I take a hearing test for work. I have perfect heariing. What this means is that the RANGE of frequencies that I can perceive is wider than someone whose hearing is less than perfect. It also means I can detect sounds at a lower volume. It does NOT mean that loud sounds are "louder" to me.
Similarly, I wear glasses due to being near sighted. This does NOT mean that I can look into the sun with any less "discomfort" than someone with perfect vision. The blinding effect of bright light is the same regardless of visual accuity.
Next, look at the skills that fall under perception: bargain... investigation, sneak... persuasion. A person who all of a sudden goes blind is no less silver-tongued than when he could see. The perception stat represents far, far more than sensory perception. It also covers intuition.
Furthermore, it represents a character's ability to quickly process information which affects the speed of decision making processes. Hence, the initiative roll being perception.
This last point is why I believe that a high perception should be a stronger defense against the effects of a flashbang--the character has greater amounts of mental reserves to draw upon in order to "figure out" what's going on after the boom.
Anyway, there's my speal in case it is helpful in achieving the desired verisimilitude. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think we could usse D&D for some insight, as well:
Elves have very accute senses, including the Drow. But since the drow are adapted to dark environments they take a penalty on actions that rely on eyesight when operating in daylight conditions.
In other words despite the keen senses of elves in general, they are no more succeptible to "sensory overload" than humans. But the drow are specifically succeptiible to light due to physiological differences developed through genetic drift. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:24 am Post subject: |
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While that is true N, i feel that the rules for using Per to resist flash bangs vice strength is much more in keeping with what those weapons are. AND it will hurt those big strong races such as wookies/trandoshans etc who often have a low perception.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:57 am Post subject: |
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I don't disagree. I simply feel that a high perception should represent a better defense against a flashbang instead of being a liability.
Or else how would OP handle a blind or deaf character who happens to have a perception of 4D or more?
In any case, just my thougjts on the idea. |
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Error
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | While that is true N, i feel that the rules for using Per to resist flash bangs vice strength is much more in keeping with what those weapons are. AND it will hurt those big strong races such as wookies/trandoshans etc who often have a low perception. |
I changed the rules a bit so that individuals roll against very easy/easy/etc. rather than a DC. Even an alien with "low" PER has a very good chance of becoming affected by flashbangs within 10m (remember again dudes, that's like 30 feet; most real-world flashbangs don't have an effect at all on someone 30 feet away, other than being annoying and producing tinnitus for a nonzero number of seconds/minutes).
| Naaman wrote: | I think we could usse D&D for some insight, as well:
Elves have very accute senses, including the Drow. But since the drow are adapted to dark environments they take a penalty on actions that rely on eyesight when operating in daylight conditions.
In other words despite the keen senses of elves in general, they are no more succeptible to "sensory overload" than humans. But the drow are specifically succeptiible to light due to physiological differences developed through genetic drift. |
Agreed that insight from other games might be needed. I'd like to see how WotC covers flashbangs in the D&D U. Not being cheeky, just curious now.
Also, being an evolutionary biologist and amateur game designer, whoever came up with "genetic drift" being the reason drow (or any other elves) are so different than regular elves needs to rethink their assessment. Not to get too technical, but the selection pressures below ground vs. the selection pressures above ground are what would have led to a speciation event. This is of course unless all of these different elven taxons can produce viable offspring together. If not, they were the products of speciation events rather than unselected genetic drift. Anyone who wants to discuss this further should PM me.
| Naaman wrote: | While its clear that the OP has a specific intent, I'm just going to throw this out there. Not trying to be contrary, just adding perspective..
The perception attribut is SO uch more that sensory accuity.
Also, accuity is NOT synonomous with sensitivity to stimuli.
Every year, I take a hearing test for work. I have perfect heariing. What this means is that the RANGE of frequencies that I can perceive is wider than someone whose hearing is less than perfect. It also means I can detect sounds at a lower volume. It does NOT mean that loud sounds are "louder" to me.
Similarly, I wear glasses due to being near sighted. This does NOT mean that I can look into the sun with any less "discomfort" than someone with perfect vision. The blinding effect of bright light is the same regardless of visual accuity.
Next, look at the skills that fall under perception: bargain... investigation, sneak... persuasion. A person who all of a sudden goes blind is no less silver-tongued than when he could see. The perception stat represents far, far more than sensory perception. It also covers intuition.
Furthermore, it represents a character's ability to quickly process information which affects the speed of decision making processes. Hence, the initiative roll being perception.
This last point is why I believe that a high perception should be a stronger defense against the effects of a flashbang--the character has greater amounts of mental reserves to draw upon in order to "figure out" what's going on after the boom.
Anyway, there's my speal in case it is helpful in achieving the desired verisimilitude. |
I understand what you're saying completely and I've always known PER is much, much more than sensory ability. However, acuity and sensitivity are exactly the same for our purposes (the very definition of acuity is "sharpness or keenness of thought, vision, or hearing."). However, I just don't think it matters here, and like I've said, I'm not adding more and more rules for corner cases.
In WEG D6, of course PER is much more than senses. But we also don't have an attribute called "Notice" or "Discern" or "Hearing" or "Vision". PER is all we have and it is my opinion that since it is the closest thing we have to a DC that includes "the senses," that's what the attribute would be which would determine susceptibility to a flashbang.
If you are contending somehow that a person's PER might help them notice the grenade coming in, now that I can get behind. Problem is, depending on range, they're in the air for a second or less. That way, if your PER check comes up positive for a flashbang and the GM says you (and you alone) have time to react, close your eyes and plug your ears. But why would you do those things to resist a flashbang if your PER doesn't determine your susceptibility? You should just be able to stand there, your 5D crazy alien PER letting flashbang after flashbang detonate directly in front of your face...
High PER would indeed also help "after the boom" because if you started with 5D in PER, you now have 3D for some rounds. Better than the guy with 1D PER after detonation.
| Naaman wrote: | I don't disagree. I simply feel that a high perception should represent a better defense against a flashbang instead of being a liability.
Or else how would OP handle a blind or deaf character who happens to have a perception of 4D or more?
In any case, just my thougjts on the idea. |
A blind and deaf character is GM prerogative to handle and we all know what would happen there (the character isn't affected). I'll say it again...I'm not going to add another line of rules just to handle yet another corner case. That's my main issue here...less rules > more (hahaha) when it comes to items. Flashbangs themselves are a corner case, and D6 corner cases (I've said this before and I'll keep doing it) are the purview of the GM. Leave it to this forum and we'd have 3/4's of a page just on vibroblades and how they don't work against specific types of armor on specific days of the week...
You guys are forgetting something...you're free to write your own versions of these weapons. Want to make a flashbang that PER defends against rather than doesn't, and that makes allowances for every alien in every situation with every level of acuity? Go do it! I wrote mine because I didn't see conversions out there, and the one I did was waaay overcomplicated (so much so it was out of the spirit of the game, IMO). Even though it might not make sense to me at all, go write one and put it in this thread, and hopefully someone who likes it will use it.
EDIT: Anyone have any thoughts on the smoke pellets? Numbers need tweaking? Does the write-up make sense to both players and GM's? Easy to use and to understand the use of? Let me know here in the thread!
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | What do you guys think of something like this:
Smoke Pellets
Model: Homemade smoke pellets
Type: Impact-detonated personal smokescreen
Skill:: Grenade
Time to Use: One round
Cost: 300 credits for the materials to make 50
Availability:: 2 (materials)
Difficulty:: Easy
Blast Radius: 2m, variable (see below)
Damage: n/a
Effect: An instant half-globe of smoke with a diameter of 2m appears with its equatorial center at the users feet (if thrown there)*. Each extra pellet used in a single instance increases the diameter of it by 1m, to a maximum of 5m. The smoke rises 1m per round, and spreads overhead, though it remains thick where it was detonated until it dissipates (2D+2 rounds if indoors, 1D+2 if rounds in large room, 1D rounds if outdoors). Visual Search skill rolls made in the smoke happen at a -3D penalty in daylight, at -4D in interior/twilight/low light and -5D in complete darkness.
Game Notes: The skill to make smoke pellets is both TEC Demolitions and (A) Explosives (meaning either would grant the ability to make them, which is moderate, and thse two skills would be rolled together to make smoke pellets).
* Obviously PC's will throw them elsewhere, I'm sure it'd be handled similarly. |
I'd drop the price... a fragmentation grenade only costs 200, and these are 50% above that.
Nitpickingly, I'd also change the first sentence to "An instant half-globe of smoke with a diameter of 2m appears with its equatorial center at the point of impact."
Yes, it will frequently be at the user's feet, but these aren't just ninja pellets... they're instant line of sight barriers, and that can have a ton of applications.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | High PER would indeed also help "after the boom" because if you started with 5D in PER, you now have 3D for some rounds. Better than the guy with 1D PER after detonation. / |
But if as you say they can't be penalized by the flashbang BELOW racial mins, since most have 2d for that min, how will they be down to 1d??
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Error
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Error wrote: | What do you guys think of something like this:
Smoke Pellets
Model: Homemade smoke pellets
Type: Impact-detonated personal smokescreen
Skill:: Grenade
Time to Use: One round
Cost: 300 credits for the materials to make 50
Availability:: 2 (materials)
Difficulty:: Easy
Blast Radius: 2m, variable (see below)
Damage: n/a
Effect: An instant half-globe of smoke with a diameter of 2m appears with its equatorial center at the users feet (if thrown there)*. Each extra pellet used in a single instance increases the diameter of it by 1m, to a maximum of 5m. The smoke rises 1m per round, and spreads overhead, though it remains thick where it was detonated until it dissipates (2D+2 rounds if indoors, 1D+2 if rounds in large room, 1D rounds if outdoors). Visual Search skill rolls made in the smoke happen at a -3D penalty in daylight, at -4D in interior/twilight/low light and -5D in complete darkness.
Game Notes: The skill to make smoke pellets is both TEC Demolitions and (A) Explosives (meaning either would grant the ability to make them, which is moderate, and thse two skills would be rolled together to make smoke pellets).
* Obviously PC's will throw them elsewhere, I'm sure it'd be handled similarly. |
I'd drop the price... a fragmentation grenade only costs 200, and these are 50% above that.
Nitpickingly, I'd also change the first sentence to "An instant half-globe of smoke with a diameter of 2m appears with its equatorial center at the point of impact."
Yes, it will frequently be at the user's feet, but these aren't just ninja pellets... they're instant line of sight barriers, and that can have a ton of applications. |
Thank you, I will make those changes. Especially the grammatical one; your edition flows much better.
I didn't look at any prices for comparison, though you either buy them one (or like 5-10) at a time or make your own in bulk...the latter ends up being way cheaper. How about 150 for the supplies to make 50, and they cost (marked up, of course) 5 credits each? Seems close to SWU. Some merchants/dealers may even offer deals on weight\, just like anywhere else.
Also loving the idea of an "instant line of sight barrier" application. Anyone have any ideas how to word that? Particularly with the new wording of the opening sentence in the "Effect" blurb. Do I just change the objects and subjects of my original post, add some things here and there, or what? Any/all thoughts assessed...
| garhkal wrote: | | Error wrote: | | High PER would indeed also help "after the boom" because if you started with 5D in PER, you now have 3D for some rounds. Better than the guy with 1D PER after detonation. / |
But if as you say they can't be penalized by the flashbang BELOW racial mins, since most have 2d for that min, how will they be down to 1d?? |
Plenty of races out there with 1D-3D PER ranges dude 
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: |
Thank you, I will make those changes. Especially the grammatical one; your edition flows much better.
I didn't look at any prices for comparison, though you either buy them one (or like 5-10) at a time or make your own in bulk...the latter ends up being way cheaper. How about 150 for the supplies to make 50, and they cost (marked up, of course) 5 credits each? Seems close to SWU. Some merchants/dealers may even offer deals on weight\, just like anywhere else. |
I'd probably go with them selling for 50-100 credits each, and can be made for 5, plus the cost of tools to make them (which we'll say will cost about 200 or so for a decent, relatively portable, kit). They are hella useful, but they're just concealment, no cover.
| Quote: |
Also loving the idea of an "instant line of sight barrier" application. Anyone have any ideas how to word that? Particularly with the new wording of the opening sentence in the "Effect" blurb. Do I just change the objects and subjects of my original post, add some things here and there, or what? Any/all thoughts assessed... |
I wouldn't change the wording beyond what I did... some people will see their use, others won't, but their only effect is that they create smoke.
And I don't see why Flashbangs would stop penalties at racial minimums. If I'm Joe Average, whose skills are only in Strength, Tech, and Knowledge, does that make me effectively immune to flashbangs, since I don't have anything BUT racial minimums in DEX, PER, and MECH?
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Error
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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What about the following? I think it clarifies some things:
Smoke Pellets
Model: Typical smoke pellet
Type: Impact-detonated personal smokescreen
Skill: Grenade
Time to Use: One round
Cost: 5 each or 150 credits for the materials to make 50
Availability: 2 (finished pellets and materials)
Difficulty: Easy
Blast Radius: 2m, variable (see below)
Damage: n/a
Effect: An instant globe of smoke with a radius of 2m appears with its center at the point of impact. If a smoke pellet creates a half-globe or other shape due to its point of impact, the extra smoke just slowly dissipates around the edges of the globe. For each extra pellet used in a single use, where the impacts of each are all within 0.5m of one another, the radius of the smoke globe increases by 1m, to a maximum of 5m. The smoke rises 1m per round, and spreads overhead and throughout entire rooms when indoors, though it remains thickest where the pellet(s) were detonated until it dissipates 3D rounds later if indoors, 2D rounds later if in a large room or equivalent, and 1D rounds later if outdoors. Visual Search skill rolls made inside or into the smoke happen at a -3D penalty in daylight, at a -4D penalty in interior light/twilight and -5D in near or complete darkness. Beings which can see in infrared and other spectra are not able to see better into smoke because of the high density of particulates, and they suffer the same Search penalties as other beings.
Game Notes: Smoke globes are generally not perfect spheres, though for game purposes, they are (or are nearly so). The skill used to make such pellets is both TEC Demolitions and (A) Explosives (meaning either would grant the ability to make them, which is moderate. If a character has both skills, they would be rolled together to manufacture smoke pellets in batches of 50).
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