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WH40K Space Marines
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: WH40K Space Marines Reply with quote

I've been chewing on this one for a while. I'm considering crossing Space Marines with Stormtroopers, most likely as an elite group of super-stormtroopers, biologically enhanced with the Astartes implants from WH40K.

I could easily see the Empire funding a project to make supra-humans, especially in a galaxy with so many species that are stronger and/or faster than the average human.

I'm curious as to what people think as far as stats and special abilities.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know enough about the Space Marines to comment on making them more Space-Marine-y, but I would say that, if you want to improve humans, from the Empire's point of view, you're almost definitely going to be looking at Strength and Dexterity boosts, possibly at the expense of Knowledge or Technical skills.

Part of the trick about making Ubermensch is that you still want them to be mensch... you can't go crazy giving them cat eyes and claws, because those make them non-human. So, I'd be inclined to say that preliminary Ubermensch would be

Dex 3D/5D
Knw 1D/3D
Mech 2D/4D
Per 2D/4D
Str 3D/5D
Tech 1D/3D

Strong and agile, able to work machines, but not good at repairing them or designing them. Very much a slave race sort of thing. The Empire might design other races of ubermensch for different purposes... technical savants with underperforming bodies (so they'd be less effective in a fight). My feeling is they'd be LEAST likely to fiddle with Increased Perception, though they might encourage lower-perception races... Increased Perception means natural leaders, in D6.

Outside of that, I would also look at other abilities that would make them ideal. Improved senses (especially sight; humans tend to be sight-focused, so I wouldn't be surprised if we buffed their ability to see before other senses), natural aptitude with desired abilities, etc.

In a lot of ways, this is what the Republic did with the Clone Army... take good stock, give a tweaked upbringing (combination of good nutrition and careful application of drugs), then funnel it into training and indoctrination classes.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But a legit Space Marine crossover would also include Techmarines and Apothecary (High Tech attribute), as well as Librarians (Force Sensitives).
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny enough, Space Marines are supermutants while the Imperium is ostensibly hostile to mutants. I know, I know, old saw and all that, but still.

Personally, I think one fun way of doing the conversion would be to basically make all the 19 gene seeds, and then a few charts, and then just start rolling.

Also, omophagea is ... icky.

Example:

Secondary heart (+1D STR for damage resistance, +1D+2 Stamina, can automatically breathe type II atmosphere)

Ossmodula (+1D Physical attacks only, stacks with Secondary heart)

Biscopea (+1D bonus to attacks based on Strength)

Haemastamen (+1D Stamina)

Larraman Organ (+2D bonus to rolls for healing injury)

And so on and so forth.

I'm actually thinking some unknown Sith General that is a nemesis to General Rom Mohc, and that has gone the way of Sith alchemy and whatnots to construct a true Dark Trooper rather than Rom Mohc's pocket battlemech.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Games Workshop actually has a Warhammer 40K roleplaying game called Dark Heresy, in which Space Marines are an available character class. It includes a section detailing how the various implants affect the character's stats, and most of them would seem to fit together as the basis for providing a 1D-2D bump in Attribute above the human norm.

The Omophagea is an interesting one, but I could see something for it along the lines of giving the character a +2D bonus to Survival rolls if they can eat the flesh of a native creature.

Then there is the Sus-An Membrane, which allows the character to go into suspended animation.
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Jedi Skyler
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit, I've never had the opportunity to play Warhammer 40K, so the terms you're bandying about have no meaning to me.

That said, the idea is intriguing. However, I wonder if you might consider taking it along a different tack...


...the Empire went a very specific way, moving away from the very effective, but very expensive method of using a clone army; with a very small number of exceptions, the soldiers in the GAR were obedient to a fault, a trait Palpatine seemingly treasured above most else. However, he kinda dropped a load of poodoo in his own mess kit when he outlawed that practice, even though it meant no one could use it against him as he'd done to the Republic.

Having done that, Palpatine turned to volunteers, as well as forced conscription, utilizing reeducation centers to brainwash dissenters, turning them into willing cannon fodder. His stance was not only that might makes right, but 'might' meant having sheer, overwhelming numbers.

At this point, there is dissension about the abilities of these troops, the vaunted and much-feared stormtroopers. I'm not intending to open a debate on that subject here; my point is that Palpatine decided on a course that involved using vast numbers of troops. (Also, I realize I'm not touching on the various specialized kinds of troopers here; I'm just talking about the ordinary, run of the mill stormtrooper at the moment).

Taking that into account, might these Space Marines you're looking at be part of some other group? Instead of being part of the Empire, where fanaticism and brainwashing produce rabid, if variably skilled soldiers, perhaps these enhanced, highly-capable troops are part of some system or group that, for whatever reason, has not been swallowed up by the Empire. Perhaps they ARE the reason the Empire hasn't been able to encircle this region in its iron grasp; perhaps these troops are simply possible BECAUSE Palpatine's attention hasn't yet been focused on this area. The possibilities are many, both for their origin and for their place in the galactic struggle-at-large.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with Warhammer 40K. My ideas might have no merit, when beheld by someone intimately familiar with that system.

And yet, they just might...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi Skyler wrote:
I have to admit, I've never had the opportunity to play Warhammer 40K, so the terms you're bandying about have no meaning to me.

Here is an article from the Warhammer 40K wiki covering the details of the conversion of a normal human into an Astartes (in-universe name for Space Marine).

When I do crossovers, I try to take into account the theme of both universes as much as possible. In the case of Warhammer 40K, the Imperium of Man is analogous to the Empire, a xenophobic human-dominated, galaxy spanning organization. The SWU already has one of those, so making a Space Marine part of a separate entity feels less in-tune with the spirit of the crossover than simply tacking the idea onto the existing human-dominated organizational grouping in the SWU.

On top of that, using clone troopers as a test-bed for developing and implanting the various bioware systems would be much simpler than recruiting initiates from the galaxy's various feral planetary cultures (which is the method used by most Astartes Chapters in WH40K), especially since the clones could be grown more rapidly than humans can age normally, which would make a clone-based supra-human available as a warrior much quicker.

On top of that, clones already receive chemical treatments, memory imprinting and the like as part of their training process (as do the Astartes).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: WH40K Space Marines Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm considering crossing Space Marines with Stormtroopers, most likely as an elite group of super-stormtroopers, biologically enhanced with the Astartes implants from WH40K.

I could easily see the Empire funding a project to make supra-humans, especially in a galaxy with so many species that are stronger and/or faster than the average human.

I'm curious as to what people think

Jedi Skyler wrote:
I have to admit, I've never had the opportunity to play Warhammer 40K, so the terms you're bandying about have no meaning to me.

That said, the idea is intriguing. However, I wonder if you might consider taking it along a different tack...

...the Empire went a very specific way, moving away from the very effective, but very expensive method of using a clone army; with a very small number of exceptions, the soldiers in the GAR were obedient to a fault, a trait Palpatine seemingly treasured above most else. However, he kinda dropped a load of poodoo in his own mess kit when he outlawed that practice, even though it meant no one could use it against him as he'd done to the Republic.

Having done that, Palpatine turned to volunteers, as well as forced conscription, utilizing reeducation centers to brainwash dissenters, turning them into willing cannon fodder. His stance was not only that might makes right, but 'might' meant having sheer, overwhelming numbers.

At this point, there is dissension about the abilities of these troops, the vaunted and much-feared stormtroopers. I'm not intending to open a debate on that subject here; my point is that Palpatine decided on a course that involved using vast numbers of troops. (Also, I realize I'm not touching on the various specialized kinds of troopers here; I'm just talking about the ordinary, run of the mill stormtrooper at the moment).

Taking that into account, might these Space Marines you're looking at be part of some other group? Instead of being part of the Empire, where fanaticism and brainwashing produce rabid, if variably skilled soldiers, perhaps these enhanced, highly-capable troops are part of some system or group that, for whatever reason, has not been swallowed up by the Empire. Perhaps they ARE the reason the Empire hasn't been able to encircle this region in its iron grasp; perhaps these troops are simply possible BECAUSE Palpatine's attention hasn't yet been focused on this area. The possibilities are many, both for their origin and for their place in the galactic struggle-at-large.

Thanks, Skyler. That is a lot of what I was going to say. Super-stormtroopers, biologically enhanced with implants?! "We offered the galaxy order!" Superior ability breeds superior ambition, so the danger would be high that an army of super-stormtroopers could turn on the Empire. The clone army was more skilled than their stormtrooper successors because the clone army had to execute Order 66 and decimate the Jedi Order. Imperial stormtroopers just had to outnumber their enemies - They were so dime-a-dozen. And even if a stormtrooper army went rogue, the Empire would only have to get a bigger stormtrooper army to take care of them (or just outsmart them). I can maybe see a small special unit of these super-stormtroopers, but not a large army. But also like Skyler said, the idea of them being a non-Imperial unit has more merit to me.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: WH40K Space Marines Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thanks, Skyler. That is a lot of what I was going to say. Super-stormtroopers, biologically enhanced with implants?! "We offered the galaxy order!" Superior ability breeds superior ambition, so the danger would be high that an army of super-stormtroopers could turn on the Empire. The clone army was more skilled than their stormtrooper successors because the clone army had to execute Order 66 and decimate the Jedi Order. Imperial stormtroopers just had to outnumber their enemies - They were so dime-a-dozen. And even if a stormtrooper army went rogue, the Empire would only have to get a bigger stormtrooper army to take care of them (or just outsmart them). I can maybe see a small special unit of these super-stormtroopers, but not a large army. But also like Skyler said, the idea of them being a non-Imperial unit has more merit to me.

In 40K the mass troops was imperial guard army. The space marines are elite shock troops. Much smaller force, but large force multipliers. Using clones would be the best way to develop the technology. Sith alchemy would be a faster method but harder to implement. Having a unit or two would be interesting but not armies, I don't see how it would work in STU.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But a legit Space Marine crossover would also include Techmarines and Apothecary (High Tech attribute), as well as Librarians (Force Sensitives).


Sure, and those would probably be crippled in some other way... both to create balanceable PCs, but also to prevent a Neosapien uprising.

But, the Librarians get interesting. Can you genetically engineer for Force Sensitivity? There's evidence you can manage it through eugenics (q.v. the Skywalker line, extending into the Legacy era), but if Jango Fett had been Force Sensitive, what would the Grand Army of the Republic have looked like? What if Palpatine had used Anakin Skywalker as his genetic base, instead of "random bounty hunter"? Or, heck, what if he'd made his Techmarines on the same scale as the Gavcorps?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Sure, and those would probably be crippled in some other way... both to create balanceable PCs, but also to prevent a Neosapien uprising.

I'm not looking for balanceable PCs. I'm primarily looking at them as a way to make even tougher opponents. Making a Space Marine conform to the starting PC template would be like making the Imperial Royal Guard conform to a starting PC template; it would water down the intent. I suppose, if the GM and player could come to some agreement, a Space Marine PC might be a possibility, but it would be roughly the same possibility of a PC Dark Trooper or Royal Guardsman.

A "Neosapien Uprising" has its analogies in the WH40K universe, as well (see the Horus Heresy). However, this is where the clone imprinting process comes into play. Recall that, per WEG, stormtroopers are completely loyal to the Emperor, even unto death. I fail to see why a similar prohibition would not also apply to augmented stormtroopers

Quote:
But, the Librarians get interesting. Can you genetically engineer for Force Sensitivity? There's evidence you can manage it through eugenics (q.v. the Skywalker line, extending into the Legacy era), but if Jango Fett had been Force Sensitive, what would the Grand Army of the Republic have looked like? What if Palpatine had used Anakin Skywalker as his genetic base, instead of "random bounty hunter"? Or, heck, what if he'd made his Techmarines on the same scale as the Gavcorps?

There is a sci-fi trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton called the Mindstar trilogy, in which the protagonist is an artificially-induced psychic. The concept here is of a "neurohormone gland" implanted in the brain-stem that boosts latent psychic potential, but that the results worked best with those who had some form of latent talent. That's just one possibility.

Bottom line, as PCs get better and better, they need more and more formidable enemies to provide them with challenges. Augmented stormtroopers with power armor and the ability to use basic Force abilities certainly qualifies as a challenge.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: WH40K Space Marines Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Super-stormtroopers, biologically enhanced with implants?! "We offered the galaxy order!" Superior ability breeds superior ambition, so the danger would be high that an army of super-stormtroopers could turn on the Empire. The clone army was more skilled than their stormtrooper successors because the clone army had to execute Order 66 and decimate the Jedi Order. Imperial stormtroopers just had to outnumber their enemies - They were so dime-a-dozen. And even if a stormtrooper army went rogue, the Empire would only have to get a bigger stormtrooper army to take care of them (or just outsmart them). I can maybe see a small special unit of these super-stormtroopers, but not a large army. But also like Skyler said, the idea of them being a non-Imperial unit has more merit to me.

But it's clear from the EU that weapons development didn't just stop with the end of the Clone Wars. Look at the Dark Trooper Project, for example. As the EU fleshed out, there was a progression toward more and more elite units. TIE Fighters began as mass-produced, disposable starships, but by Endor, the Empire was experimenting with the most advanced starfighters in existence (TIE Defenders). There is also the elite corps of the Imperial Guard (the Force-Sensitive Sovereign Protectors).

For that matter, how is it that the Emperor's Guards had 5D Dexterity? Augmented human clones, maybe?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, if we're just looking at NPCs, then we've got an entirely new ball game to play with.

I'd be inclined to look at the generating corporation (because the Empire is almost always going to have a corporation, even a nationalized one, at the heart of things). Who are they? Where are they based? Who's the Sith Alchemist/Geneticist who is behind everything?

Depending on your time period, I'd be inclined to stick this in a backwater system, and under nominal control of a regional governor. He's got the Bravada system sewn up, complete blockade, where they're using genetic stock from the massive human population to improve certain experienced storm troopers.

Nominally beneath Moff Kreikin (CRY-kin), but actually answerable only to the Emperor, you're going to have Darth Mallux (MAL-uks), himself a human who combines Sith Alchemy with genetic engineering and cybernetics to create your super-soldiers. He tests things on the normal people of Bravada II system, occasionally developing useful weirdness for the garden moons that feed the planet, but mostly focusing on creating super-soldiers, that Moff Kreikin runs through brutal tests on Bravada III, an Ice Planet barely in the habitable zone. Mallux's super soldiers are usually Stormtroopers or other Imperial personnel who have been badly injured, but stabilized... they're sent to Mallux to get enhanced, with minimal cybernetics and a lot of bio-systems.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Jedi Skyler wrote:
I have to admit, I've never had the opportunity to play Warhammer 40K, so the terms you're bandying about have no meaning to me.

Here is an article from the Warhammer 40K wiki covering the details of the conversion of a normal human into an Astartes (in-universe name for Space Marine).

When I do crossovers, I try to take into account the theme of both universes as much as possible. In the case of Warhammer 40K, the Imperium of Man is analogous to the Empire, a xenophobic human-dominated, galaxy spanning organization. The SWU already has one of those, so making a Space Marine part of a separate entity feels less in-tune with the spirit of the crossover than simply tacking the idea onto the existing human-dominated organizational grouping in the SWU.

On top of that, using clone troopers as a test-bed for developing and implanting the various bioware systems would be much simpler than recruiting initiates from the galaxy's various feral planetary cultures (which is the method used by most Astartes Chapters in WH40K), especially since the clones could be grown more rapidly than humans can age normally, which would make a clone-based supra-human available as a warrior much quicker.

On top of that, clones already receive chemical treatments, memory imprinting and the like as part of their training process (as do the Astartes).


Except.they aren't equivolent. Imperium of man is not so much Xenophibic as just about any aliens are out to destroy the human race. The Imperium is portrayed as doing bad for hings because if not then worse things happen. For example they sacrifice thousands of psyckers for the Emperor because if they don't then the Emperor dies and all the warp lanes closes and all the Dark Gods devour mankind.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Ok, if we're just looking at NPCs, then we've got an entirely new ball game to play with.

I'm less concerned with the background than I am with stats that accurately represent what they can do. If nothing else, the discussion so far has shown that people are going to have different ideas as to how this crossover should be applied, so I'd rather focus on making the actual stats a good crossover, and keep the background to a minimum so that people can flesh it out for themselves.
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