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Rogue One (original spoilers thread)
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I agree on the soundtrack.


I think Giacchino's music was...you know...fine. It wasn't amazing, but it was serviceable. This is, however, a major step up from the AWFUL score he did for Star Trek '09. That film might be enjoyable in a general sense as generic space adventure (it sure ain't Trek...), but I cannot watch it because the score is just so bloody uninspired that it's painful to listen to, and completely distracting.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I agree on the soundtrack.

I think Giacchino's music was...you know...fine. It wasn't amazing, but it was serviceable. This is, however, a major step up from the AWFUL score he did for Star Trek '09. That film might be enjoyable in a general sense as generic space adventure (it sure ain't Trek...), but I cannot watch it because the score is just so bloody uninspired that it's painful to listen to, and completely distracting.

No, it's not John Williams. I agree the RO score was fine and serviceable, which is really exactly what I thought it would. I'm pleased that he appropriately resurrected the ANH Imperial Motif and used other existing Williams themes mostly appropriately. I disagree that the ST09 score was that awful. It wasn't fantastic either, but it was ok.

Quote:
I agree on the Death Star flaw.

I've watched Rogue One back-to-back with A New Hope, and I totally disagree on the Death Star flaw. Without RO, Luke pulled off a one-in-a-million shot. The intentional flaw of RO brought the chance to destroy it from the completely impossible into the realm of the possible but still highly improbable. The flaw turned utter hopelessness into hope, and Rebellions are built on hope. It still required Luke to use the Force to destroy. The Rebel accomplishment in A New Hope still feels dramatic to me.

The two Guardians of the Whills were different, and only one of them mowed down tons of troopers. He wasn't even a recent Guardian. He had left the order a while before it was disbanded. Confusing the cynical rough-and-tumble shoot-em-up guy with the blind Force-spouting kung-fu guy with a staff is really not paying much attention to the film.

The rough cut of RO was even darker and they actually did extensive reshoots to lighten the tone a bit. I prefer the bright-eyed, optimistic Rebellion in the OT, but I liked the dirty, ugly and cruel aspects of the Rebellion in RO, which is by intentional design a darker film. It shows a progression to the light. And you can't just generalize the entire Alliance anyway. The Alliance darkness in RO was clearly shown in the film to be focused on Intelligence General Dravin and his operative, Cassian Andor. Saw Gerrera's rebels had broken off from the Alliance. Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Admiral Raddus were not dirty. Cassian clearly forsakes the darkness and repents in the film, and General Dravin was clearly shown to have ordered the assassination of Galen Erson against Mon Mothma's wishes. Since Dravin is never heard from again, I like to think that after the events of the RO, Dravin was fired from his High Command position by Mothma.

The total destruction of Alderaan in A New Hope is darker than anything that happens in Rogue One. RO cleverly runs the clock backwards from ANH to lead up this ultimate evil act. For me, RO is a great transition from PT to OT, and RO only enhances the drama of ANH. I feel sorry for those that don't enjoy it as much as I do.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
During the scene where the Rogue One crew takes the shuttle through the Shield Gate the first time, there's a close up on the control tower. Outside is a catwalk. And, walking, outside, is a stormtrooper, open to space!

He looks to be in normal trooper armor, but obviously, it is pressurized. I'm sure arty grav is produced by the station.

I don't remember seeing that. Got a screen cap?

There were Spacetroopers standing outside on the Death Star in ANH. Their armor appears to be mostly standard stormtrooper armor.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

The rough cut of RO was even darker and they actually did extensive reshoots to lighten the tone a bit..


I would LOVE to get a chance of seeing the more 'gritty' rough cut..
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I agree on the soundtrack.

I think Giacchino's music was...you know...fine. It wasn't amazing, but it was serviceable. This is, however, a major step up from the AWFUL score he did for Star Trek '09. That film might be enjoyable in a general sense as generic space adventure (it sure ain't Trek...), but I cannot watch it because the score is just so bloody uninspired that it's painful to listen to, and completely distracting.

No, it's not John Williams. I agree the RO score was fine and serviceable, which is really exactly what I thought it would. I'm pleased that he appropriately resurrected the ANH Imperial Motif and used other existing Williams themes mostly appropriately. I disagree that the ST09 score was that awful. It wasn't fantastic either, but it was ok.


I found it -- at best -- to be completely forgettable. The one part I remember is the single repeated motif that's played throughout the whole film, which is just...boring to me, and conveys basically nothing. It sounds impressive, but it's empty.

I thought RO, though, was much more effective at conveying emotion and affecting the audience. It's still not Williams, but Williams is one of a kind. And, to me, it shows Giacchino is capable of more than what Trek showed us, which was basically the same repeated motif.

A guy named Mike Verta (whom I know from another message board) took the score to task in a pretty snarky way, but it mostly captured my reaction to the score (albeit with a bit more venom than I'd apply).

http://www.mikeverta.com/Posts/ST_Comment_1.mp3
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
During the scene where the Rogue One crew takes the shuttle through the Shield Gate the first time, there's a close up on the control tower. Outside is a catwalk. And, walking, outside, is a stormtrooper, open to space!

He looks to be in normal trooper armor, but obviously, it is pressurized. I'm sure arty grav is produced by the station.


I don't remember seeing that. Got a screen cap?


Nope. Just cut to the moment that the Rogue One crew take the stolen shuttle down into the Shield Gate, when they are waiting on the code clearance.

Oh, wait, here it is...

CLICK HERE FOR IMAGE


Yeah, I noticed that stormtrooper doing the spacewalk a few weks ago on one of my rewatchings of RO. I was kinda hoping that they could have canonized Spacetroopers if they were going to do something like that. Stormtrooper armor isn't even hermetically sealed! Hell, even Star Wars Rebels didn't try to suggest that those stormtroopers spaced by Chopper would be just fine and dandy with exposure to pure vacuum.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, I noticed that stormtrooper doing the spacewalk a few weks ago on one of my rewatchings of RO. I was kinda hoping that they could have canonized Spacetroopers if they were going to do something like that. Stormtrooper armor isn't even hermetically sealed! Hell, even Star Wars Rebels didn't try to suggest that those stormtroopers spaced by Chopper would be just fine and dandy with exposure to pure vacuum.


Even Finn's description of their filter masks in TFA tells us that they are not sealed.

But, maybe, the bodyglove underneath can be pressurized?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
There were Spacetroopers standing outside on the Death Star in ANH. Their armor appears to be mostly standard stormtrooper armor.


I have never seen that, as many times as I've seen ANH.

I'm getting ready to re-watch it. I'll look for it.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I've watched Rogue One back-to-back with A New Hope, and I totally disagree on the Death Star flaw. Without RO, Luke pulled off a one-in-a-million shot...


And, while (I think it was Wedge) it is said during the briefing that the shot is impossible, even for a computer, Luke highly disagrees. In fact, Luke thinks it is no harder than bulls-eyeing womp rats.

Then, Han says the shot was one in a million, but maybe he's was referring to the heat Luke had on him when he made the shot--Darth Vader.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Whill wrote:
I've watched Rogue One back-to-back with A New Hope, and I totally disagree on the Death Star flaw. Without RO, Luke pulled off a one-in-a-million shot...


And, while (I think it was Wedge) it is said during the briefing that the shot is impossible, even for a computer, Luke highly disagrees. In fact, Luke thinks it is no harder than bulls-eyeing womp rats.

Then, Han says the shot was one in a million, but maybe he's was referring to the heat Luke had on him when he made the shot--Darth Vader.


It was indeed Wedge who said that the shot was impossible even for a computer.

And it's the old trope about A Million To One Chance being fulfilled. I still remember one particular strip from the Order of the Stick webcomic where an imp is summoning a Greater Demon and the main characters are commenting that it's unlikely that the imp will succeed with the summoning. The Genre Savvy Genius Ditz asks the wizard "How unlikely? Like, a 10 percent chance?" and the wizard replies that the odds are far more astronomical. This prompts the Genius Ditz to ask "What, you mean like a million to one chance?" The wizard replies to the effect that not precisely 1 million to one, but in that general vicinity, to which the Ditz immediately yells "TAKE COVER!" to the rest of the party as the Greater Demon is successfully summoned.

Elan wrote:
A ten percent chance is pretty unlikely but everyone knows that A Million to One Chance is a sure thing!


Same thing with Luke destroying the Death Star: it's a Million to One shot that succeeds because otherwise Star Wars would have had a Downer Ending, and the Star Wars franchise would never have existed because ANH would have been so terrible George Lucas would never have been able to make more movies about it again. Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember Terry Pratchett covering the "one in a million" trope in one of his books. I seem to recall that having being told that shooting an arrow into a dragons weak spot was one in a million, but also knowing that one in a million chances always succeed, they set about increasing the difficulty of the shot to get to the million mark by wearing a blindfold, hopping on one leg and hanging off a ledge, etc. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I've watched Rogue One back-to-back with A New Hope, and I totally disagree on the Death Star flaw. Without RO, Luke pulled off a one-in-a-million shot. The intentional flaw of RO brought the chance to destroy it from the completely impossible into the realm of the possible but still highly improbable. The flaw turned utter hopelessness into hope, and Rebellions are built on hope. It still required Luke to use the Force to destroy. The Rebel accomplishment in A New Hope still feels dramatic to me.


I view it from an engineering standpoint, and an espionage one.

Let us, for a moment, assume that the flaw was NOT intentionally designed. In that case, the Rebel alliance was, in the course of a few short hours (maybe, at most, days between the escape from the Death Star and its arrival at Yavin) completely analyze the plans of a massive space station, and discover a fatal flaw that NONE of their engineers recognized in DECADES of work on the project. No one, working on the main reactor, said "Hey, this exhaust port is a bit vulnerable, isn't it? Can't we put, like, a couple 45* jinks in it, to prevent someone from shooting a proton torpedo at the main reactor?"

The other option, the one presented by Rogue One, is that there was a dedicated campaign of sabotage inside the Empire to insert this flaw into the machine, and conceal its existence. Remember during the trench run, when the officer comes up to Tarkin and says "We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there may be a danger? Should I have your shuttle ready?" The Empire clearly didn't know about the flaw until the thrust of the Rebel attack made them look at it. Which means that, either they built the space station with the most incompetent of engineers... or someone was hiding it. That, IMO, scans better. It makes more sense that a fatal flaw, an Achilles heel, on such a massive project would've been put there deliberately, and that someone leaking that flaw to the Rebellion would make sure it was noticed.

So, I don't have a problem with the Death Star flaw, or really feel it cheapens what the Alliance accomplished. If anything, it makes the Empire look LESS INCOMPETENT. Because the alternative to "A saboteur, highly placed in the Empire's engineering team, made sure that a planet-killing weapon was vulnerable to attack" is

"Well, I mean, there's this little hole. It was kind of an aesthetic choice by the architect. And if you shoot a laser into this hole, the station blows up."
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
In that case, the Rebel alliance was, in the course of a few short hours (maybe, at most, days between the escape from the Death Star and its arrival at Yavin) completely analyze the plans of a massive space station, and discover a fatal flaw that NONE of their engineers recognized in DECADES of work on the project. No one, working on the main reactor, said "Hey, this exhaust port is a bit vulnerable, isn't it? Can't we put, like, a couple 45* jinks in it, to prevent someone from shooting a proton torpedo at the main reactor?"


Just playing Devil's Advocate here...

Couldn't the flaw not be put there on purpose but also be extremely well hidden so that, in that massive system inside of system that is the Death Star, that it just never got noticed in spite of all the checks and double checks?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
In that case, the Rebel alliance was, in the course of a few short hours (maybe, at most, days between the escape from the Death Star and its arrival at Yavin) completely analyze the plans of a massive space station, and discover a fatal flaw that NONE of their engineers recognized in DECADES of work on the project. No one, working on the main reactor, said "Hey, this exhaust port is a bit vulnerable, isn't it? Can't we put, like, a couple 45* jinks in it, to prevent someone from shooting a proton torpedo at the main reactor?"


Just playing Devil's Advocate here...

Couldn't the flaw not be put there on purpose but also be extremely well hidden so that, in that massive system inside of system that is the Death Star, that it just never got noticed in spite of all the checks and double checks?


Possibly? Sure. Anything is possible, including a farm boy shooting a proton torpedo unaided into a two-meter wide exhaust port while flying at speed and under fire. But, again, it requires not just one failed check or complication, but years of them, from some of the best in the Empire. Active sabotage and disinformation makes it a lot more likely. And, when you consider that many in the Empire were likely in the Republic beforehand, you've got a built-in reason for it to happen.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you can bet with a project of its size, there were corners cut on some inspections.. Especially with how pressured they were to get it into service (according to Rogue one). So maybe if they had done proper inspections, they might have found the flaw.
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