The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Melee combat against Stormtroopers
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters -> Melee combat against Stormtroopers Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1452

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
Well and here is the problem. After the players characters first action he is in melee combat range, but then it's the Troopers turn. And because the players character was running to them, they can fire their blasters on point-blank. It's always deadly for the players character.


Just to mention, if you want to make the gun vs. melee thing even deadlier and more realistic, try the optional rule from the Spec Ops books where you can remove dice from the attack and add those dice to damage if you hit.

It makes for very deadly weapons at close range.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10697
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Just to mention, if you want to make the gun vs. melee thing even deadlier and more realistic, try the optional rule from the Spec Ops books where you can remove dice from the attack and add those dice to damage if you hit.

It makes for very deadly weapons at close range.

The problem with that rule is that it essentially cancels out scale modifiers. Taken to extremes, a character with 8D Blaster could take out a starfighter with a blaster pistol by transferring 6D to his Damage roll, which is immediately replaced by the +6D Scale modifier.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3606
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
We let combatants use melee/brawling parry instead of dodge if they are in melee with the shooter.
This usually makes life easier for melee oriented characters as long as they get in melee before getting shot.
Other than a Jedi with a lightsaber I haven't actually seen anyone try using melee parry to avoid getting shot. But as you describe it that makes sense. Actually I like it better than all the times I've had a player want his PC to dodge a melee attack rather than using melee or brawling parry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10697
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense. If you’re close enough to uses melee weapon, you’re close enough to knock a blaster to one side or the other. It might be appropriate to increase the base difficulty, the way the RAW does when allowing Brawling Parry to be used against Melee Attacks.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11614
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Just to mention, if you want to make the gun vs. melee thing even deadlier and more realistic, try the optional rule from the Spec Ops books where you can remove dice from the attack and add those dice to damage if you hit.

It makes for very deadly weapons at close range.

The problem with that rule is that it essentially cancels out scale modifiers. Taken to extremes, a character with 8D Blaster could take out a starfighter with a blaster pistol by transferring 6D to his Damage roll, which is immediately replaced by the +6D Scale modifier.


That it does. Which is why i've often seen people do that die pooling, they CAP it at half the weapon's base damage. SO that guy couldn't gain more than 2d on a regular pistol..

CRMcNeill wrote:
Makes sense. If you’re close enough to uses melee weapon, you’re close enough to knock a blaster to one side or the other. It might be appropriate to increase the base difficulty, the way the RAW does when allowing Brawling Parry to be used against Melee Attacks.


Would that be +5 or +10 to the diff??
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2185

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on whose turn it is,trying to shoot against someone engaging you in melee should require a brawling roll and if successful, you deal blaster damage instead of brawling daamage.

If using a melee weapon to parry a blaster, then the SHOOTER should be at the disadvantage, not the melee defender: if you are in bayonet range and your enemy is trying to shoot you, and you "knock his arms/blaster off target," that's going to jack up his arms pretty bad. In combat, we do everything we can to stay out of melee range, and when we get into melee range, we do everything we can to get back out so as to reengage with the gun(s). The weapon retention techniques are built into the melee combat training, the idea being that you dont want the control of your weapon's muzzle being contested. As soonas you are back in complete control, snap off enough shots to end that fight ASAP.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10697
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Which is why i've often seen people do that die pooling, they CAP it at half the weapon's base damage. SO that guy couldn't gain more than 2d on a regular pistol..

Which is why I prefer the 1/3 method, because while I don't like the idea of bonuses scaling up too fast, I also don't like the idea of placing arbitrary caps on what characters can do if they roll high enough. The 1/3 method is open-ended, which allows the character to increase damage with accuracy, but does it at a rate which doesn't negate the soak capability of a heavily armored target (unless the character spends a FP, of course...)

Quote:
Would that be +5 or +10 to the diff??
Naaman wrote:
Depending on whose turn it is,trying to shoot against someone engaging you in melee should require a brawling roll and if successful, you deal blaster damage instead of brawling damage.

If using a melee weapon to parry a blaster, then the SHOOTER should be at the disadvantage, not the melee defender: if you are in bayonet range and your enemy is trying to shoot you, and you "knock his arms/blaster off target," that's going to jack up his arms pretty bad. In combat, we do everything we can to stay out of melee range, and when we get into melee range, we do everything we can to get back out so as to reengage with the gun(s). The weapon retention techniques are built into the melee combat training, the idea being that you don't want the control of your weapon's muzzle being contested. As soon as you are back in complete control, snap off enough shots to end that fight ASAP.

Well, from what Naaman is saying, it would seem the penalties actually go the other way.

I've been thinking of giving reach weapons (polearms / spears and the like) a +10 Difficulty modifier to inside a certain distance (say, 3 meters / Point Blank for most Blasters). Maybe the same would be appropriate against blaster rifles, and +5 for Pistols, as part of representing their improved usefulness in close combat.

Warhammer 40K made the distinction between Close Combat Weapons and Improvised Weapons, where an Improvised Weapon was any object not designed primarily as a weapon that could be used as a weapon (bottles, rocks, sporting equipment, etc). A Rifle was considered an Improvised Weapon since it was designed as a ranged weapon, not a club. However, one could, by attaching a combat accessory (aka a bayonet) turn it into a close combat weapon...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11614
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Which is why i've often seen people do that die pooling, they CAP it at half the weapon's base damage. SO that guy couldn't gain more than 2d on a regular pistol..

Which is why I prefer the 1/3 method, because while I don't like the idea of bonuses scaling up too fast, I also don't like the idea of placing arbitrary caps on what characters can do if they roll high enough. The 1/3 method is open-ended, which allows the character to increase damage with accuracy, but does it at a rate which doesn't negate the soak capability of a heavily armored target (unless the character spends a FP, of course...)

Where i Do still see a need to cap a weapon.. IMO just cause you rolled real awesome, shouldn't mean a weapon that normally caps out at 23 damage (with no wild 6), could do more than DOUBLE that value..
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10697
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat against Stormtroopers Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Where i Do still see a need to cap a weapon.. IMO just cause you rolled real awesome, shouldn't mean a weapon that normally caps out at 23 damage (with no wild 6), could do more than DOUBLE that value..

I consider a 3-to-1 ratio to be more than a sufficient cap, while simultaneously dangling the possibility of that random lucky shot hitting at just the right place and time to take out something it has no business taking out.

In general, I don't mind placing caps on equipment, but I prefer to keep the "human" option open ended.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2185

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pistols can work in a brawl, but the shooter would need to be reasonably proficient at protecting his gun to keep control of it. There are very simple things a shooter can do to keep his pistol "safe," but its one of those things that must be accounted for before the brawl even starts.

In simple terms, you could apply a penalty on the attack roll for someone attempting to shot a personwho has managed to get into brawling range. This would very simply simulate the character having the "knowledge" required to use his pistol effectively at melee range.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2185

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRM, see if you can find on youtube the episode of deadliest warrior that pits Rangers against N. Korean Specal Forces. This has an excellent description of what Im trying to explain.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10697
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Pistols can work in a brawl, but the shooter would need to be reasonably proficient at protecting his gun to keep control of it. There are very simple things a shooter can do to keep his pistol "safe," but its one of those things that must be accounted for before the brawl even starts.

In simple terms, you could apply a penalty on the attack roll for someone attempting to shoot a person who has managed to get into brawling range. This would very simply simulate the character having the "knowledge" required to use his pistol effectively at melee range.

I did something similar to this with my re-write of the Blaster Weapons, where Pistols have a +1D to Blaster at Point Blank Range, while some of the larger rifles suffer a -1D penalty. Somehow, though, I don't get the feeling this fully covers what you're saying.

Maybe something like a -1D Penalty for Pistols against Brawling or Melee Disarm attacks, and a -2D for Rifles?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2185

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, its your game, I'm just throwing in my opinion. I wont have access to my computer till Weds. Give me a couple days and I'll elaborate.

In the meantime, I feel like it doesn't mean much since D6 lacks a mechanic like d20's "threatened area." The shooter can just back up and engage risk free.

In my opinion, if a character manages to close into melee range against a shooter (taking ALL the risks to get there while the shooter takes none), thereshould be a mechanic that compels the shooter to deal with the brawler for at least one whole round. Since there isnt, the rules don't really support blasters being penalized in melee. For example, if hands are full with blaster, just "kick" your opponent, so you don't trigger the penalty.


Anyway, I feel the solution requires an approach too intricate to try and type up on my phone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10697
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I look forward to your perspective.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zarn
Captain
Captain


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 621
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Wick and John Wick 2 both showcase the use of pistols while brawling - and did so quite proficiently.

https://youtu.be/w-HSoOFdJ3s?t=193 is an example from the first of the two John Wick movies (Warning: quite violent)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0