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Force Powers and MAPs
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: Force Powers and MAPs Reply with quote

I have a player who wants to play a Jedi and he asked me specifically about activating lighsaber combat. He has Control 3D+2, Sense 2D+2. He wants to:

1. Activate control, roll 3D+2.
2. Activate concentration on sense, roll 2D+2 (-1D because he is keeping "up" his control roll to activate LSC?).
3. Activate sense, roll 5D+2 (2D+2 sense, +4D concentration bonus, -1D for keeping "up" control to activate LCS?).

If you have Force powers activated and "up" each use of the skills to maintain it cost an action. So LCS requires two free actions per round to keep activated.

Lightsaber 7D+2 (5D +2D+2 sense), damage 8D+2 (5D+3D+2).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think any Force ability that requires more than one Control, Sense, or Alter roll to activate is actually just those multiple rolls happening at the same time. So when you activate Lightsaber Combat you roll to activate it with two skills, those two rolls are not two actions. Unless I am totally unclear on what you are asking here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers and MAPs Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
I have a player who wants to play a Jedi and he asked me specifically about activating lighsaber combat. He has Control 3D+2, Sense 2D+2. He wants to:

1. Activate control, roll 3D+2.
2. Activate concentration on sense, roll 2D+2 (-1D because he is keeping "up" his control roll to activate LSC?).
3. Activate sense, roll 5D+2 (2D+2 sense, +4D concentration bonus, -1D for keeping "up" control to activate LCS?).


Since he has Control up (hopefully), he couldn't Activate concentration ON the sense side.

shootingwomprats wrote:
If you have Force powers activated and "up" each use of the skills to maintain it cost an action. So LCS requires two free actions per round to keep activated.

Lightsaber 7D+2 (5D +2D+2 sense), damage 8D+2 (5D+3D+2).


2 MAP actions, not 2 free actions.

So in that example, his 7d+2 Lightsbaber skill drops 2d from MAPS for his first action he takes (cause he's now at doing 3 actions). -3d if he also wishes to parry.

Error wrote:
I think any Force ability that requires more than one Control, Sense, or Alter roll to activate is actually just those multiple rolls happening at the same time. So when you activate Lightsaber Combat you roll to activate it with two skills, those two rolls are not two actions. Unless I am totally unclear on what you are asking here.


Nope. 2 rolls = two actions.
So having LS combat up, making 1 attack and 1 parry is 4 total actions, -3D from all actions due to MAPS.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I think any Force ability that requires more than one Control, Sense, or Alter roll to activate is actually just those multiple rolls happening at the same time. So when you activate Lightsaber Combat you roll to activate it with two skills, those two rolls are not two actions. Unless I am totally unclear on what you are asking here.


I believe that if there are two rolls required of a force.power in the same round than MAPs apply.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Force Powers and MAPs Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Since he has Control up (hopefully), he couldn't Activate concentration ON the sense side.


I am confused. This suggests you cannot invoke multiple powers. I don't think I saw anything about that. When I said free actions, I mean they count towards MAPs but not as actual actions. If he activated LCS, the next round it would still be invoked. That is two uses of a Force skill, again this is simulated more as intense concentration/faith manipulate the Force.

I am really confused about this and I thought I had a handle on D6 Force Rules. Now I see I don't.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: Force Powers and MAPs Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Since he has Control up (hopefully), he couldn't Activate concentration ON the sense side.


I am confused. This suggests you cannot invoke multiple powers. I don't think I saw anything about that. When I said free actions, I mean they count towards MAPs but not as actual actions. If he activated LCS, the next round it would still be invoked. That is two uses of a Force skill, again this is simulated more as intense concentration/faith manipulate the Force.

I am really confused about this and I thought I had a handle on D6 Force Rules. Now I see I don't.


That comment whamp was in relation to his player's wishing to Activate Concentration to get his Sense side of LS combat up.. Not saying that you can't activate multiple powers in the same round.

And NOTHING i have seen in any of the books shows making multiple rolls for bring up a two (or three) skill Force Power, shows that the rolls are anything BUT actions.
So if John Jedi wishes to activate LS combat, he needs to declare 2 actions. Not just one action and rolls both skills in that one action..

If you can find something contradictory, go for it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: Force Powers and MAPs Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
I have a player who wants to play a Jedi and he asked me specifically about activating lighsaber combat. He has Control 3D+2, Sense 2D+2. He wants to:

1. Activate control, roll 3D+2.
2. Activate concentration on sense, roll 2D+2 (-1D because he is keeping "up" his control roll to activate LSC?).
3. Activate sense, roll 5D+2 (2D+2 sense, +4D concentration bonus, -1D for keeping "up" control to activate LCS?).

If you have Force powers activated and "up" each use of the skills to maintain it cost an action. So LCS requires two free actions per round to keep activated.

Lightsaber 7D+2 (5D +2D+2 sense), damage 8D+2 (5D+3D+2).

I am confused. This suggests you cannot invoke multiple powers. I don't think I saw anything about that. When I said free actions, I mean they count towards MAPs but not as actual actions. If he activated LCS, the next round it would still be invoked. That is two uses of a Force skill, again this is simulated more as intense concentration/faith manipulate the Force.

I am really confused about this and I thought I had a handle on D6 Force Rules. Now I see I don't.

I think you're on the right track but some of your terminology is confusing and your example is not that clear. Let's first go back to RAW...

R&E p.141-143 wrote:
Using Powers

Many of these powers use a combination of the three Jedi skills. Calling upon each Force skill is a separate action.

The Jedi may roll each skill in consecutive rounds at no penalty, or may attempt to fully activate the power in one round, incurring normal multiple action penalties.

Example: Ana is trying to activate projective telepathy, which requires both a control and sense roll.

Ana can make the control roll in the first round and the sense roll in the second. She gets to roll her full die code for both Force skills, but it takes her two rounds to activate the power.

If the situation is urgent, Ana may try to activate the power in one round by rolling both control and sense in that round. This counts as two actions, so Ana would roll both control and sense at -ID.
...
If a character is stunned, wounded or worse, all "up" powers are automatically dropped.

A character who is keeping a power "up" is using the power's Force skills as long as the power is operating, and loses die codes as if taking actions.
...
Lightsaber combat is a control and sense power and may be kept up. The Jedi may keep the power up, but loses -2D to all other actions because lightsaber combat requires two Force skills.
...
Concentration
...
The individual Jedi concentrates on one specific task at hand. If the skill roll is successful, the Jedi may add +4D to any one action in that round. The Jedi may do nothing other than using the concentration power and using that one skill for one action. The Jedi receives no bonus if anything else is done in that round, including duplicate uses of the same skill or dodges or parries.

This power may be used in conjunction with Force Points or Character Points. This power is only in effect for one round and may not be kept "up".
...
Example: Luke is flying down the trench of the Death Star... Using the Force, he concentrates on the task of firing a proton torpedo into the unshielded exhaust port... Luke's starship gunnery skill is 6D. He loses -1D for doing one other thing in the round (using the Force counts as an action), reducing his starship gunnery skill to 5D. Because he rolls successfully for his control, he receives the bonus of +4D, making his effective skill for that round 9D... If Luke attempted any other action in that round, including firing another proton torpedo or blaster, or dodging enemy shots, he would receive no bonus.

Let's be clear that Force skills are not "activated". Force skills functionally operate like any other skills. Force skills are MAPped like other actions. Force powers are activated through using Force skills successfully, and some powers require multiple skill rolls to activate. Powers are the effects of using Force skills.

For powers that can be "kept up", you can have multiple powers up as long as everything is MAPped accordingly to bring them up in the first place. But Concentration is not one of those powers.

In your example, is step 1 in the same round as 2 and 3, or is 1 first in its own round? If the Control roll for LsC is done in its own round and the Sense roll is done is the next round, then the Sense roll is not reduced by LsC' Control roll because you split them up into two rounds. If you rolled LsC's Control and Sense the same round, then you would have -1D to both due to the MAP.

Yes, you could use Concentration to help the the Sense roll as long as LsC's Control and Sense are done in separate (consecutive) rounds. If you are rolling them together, then Concentration can't be used at all because it can only help one skill and that can be the only other action besides the Concentration.

Whether LsC's two skill rolls were consecutive rounds or the same round, the power is not "activated" until the second of the two rolls are successful.

So keeping them separate to use Concentration, LsC's Control would be at the full 3D+2 as long as the PC didn't do anything else that round. Then the next round (2 actions: Control for Concentration + Sense for LsC), Concentration would be Control 2D+2 due to the -1D MAP for two actions that round. If the Concentration is successful, then LsC's Sense roll would be at 5D+2 (2D+2 +4D -1D for the MAP from Concentration's Control roll).

If LsC was successfully activated and is being kept up, then starting the next round he would have the bonus from Sense added to the Lightsaber skill (which is seemingly 5D). But he would also be starting every round the power is being kept up with a -2D MAP just because LsC is a two-skill power.

You can see RAW's LsC becomes increasingly more beneficial the higher Sense gets, because each die is Sense offsets another MAP from multiple attack (and parrys or deflections as they come up). But no matter how high your Force skills get, you still carry a -2D MAP just from keeping up LsC, so that can impact your ability to do anything else but attack, parry and deflect with the lightsaber. If you have another Force power "kept up" at the same time as LsC, then you would carry additional MAPs for all actions every round, one MAP for each Force skill needed to activate that power.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must have been using Force powers wrong all these years then. If a given PC wanted to use Lightsaber Combat, I'd just have that player roll Control and Sense. If both are successes, the character has LC "up" and takes a -1D MAP for that for any subsequent rounds while it is "up".

I had no idea every single roll concerning Force powers was supposed to count as an action and increase MAP's. Seems super counter intuitive to me, and also counter to WEG's other simple-to-understand D6 stuff.

I'm not going to argue it because it's ITR, but I'm probably not going to use these rules exactly as they are either. Mostly since they seriously bog down Force users and require constant round-by-round math that slows everyone else down too.

Also, this is just my two cents (which nobody asked for), but stuff like Lightsaber Combat costing two MAP's per round to keep up is ridiculous. I don't care what Force power it is, if it's "up" I only penalize -1D. The characters seem to still get themselves into -3D or even -4D MAP's for certain rounds, though...

Too much math and too many penalties is too much math and too many penalties.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets try this again:

Lightsaber 5D, Control 3D+2, Sense 2D+2.

Round 1. Character states they wish to perform only one action this round and that will be his Control skill roll to activate LSC.
Round 2. Character states they wish to use the Force power Concentration to focus on his Sense roll to activate LSC.

If I understand things correctly, its goes like this:

Round 1. Roll Sense 3D+2.
Round 2. Roll Control 1D+2 (-2D MAP: banked Control for LCS, Control for Concentration, Sense skill to activate LCS). If Concentration power is successful, +4D to sense roll. 4D+2 (-2D MAP: banked Control for LCS, use of Concentration, Sense skill to activate LCS).
Round 3. LCS is now activated, but costs 2 actions to be kept "up". He decides to attack a pirate, declaring 1 action. So he makes the attack at a -2D MAP (3 actions: control, sense, lightsaber). He may +2 his lightsaber skill (Sense -2D) and his damage is 6D+2 (Control -2D).

Is this correct?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing the same player pointed out to me was about Control Pain.

Quote:
Control Pain
Control Difficulty: Very Easy for wounded or stunned characters, Easy for incapacitated characters, Difficult for mortally wounded characters.

The power can be kept “up,” so the character can ignore the pain of injuries for a long period of time. However, whenever the character is injured again, the Jedi must make a new control pain roll, with the difficulty being the new level of injury.

Effect: A wounded Jedi who controls pain can act as if she has not been wounded, starting with the round after the power roll has been made. The wound is not healed, but the character doesn’t suffer the penalties of being wounded: a wounded Jedi doesn’t suffer any die code penalties; an incapacitated character can still act normally, as can a mortally wounded character.

This power can also be used to shrug off any stun results.


So this power is considered an action to invoke and to keep up. Yes a character who is stunned or wounded 1 that's a -1D negative modifier. SO its pretty useless unless the character is wounded 2, but most effective if incapacitated or worse. Its pretty much a throw away power. Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Lets try this again:

Lightsaber 5D, Control 3D+2, Sense 2D+2.

Round 1. Character states they wish to perform only one action this round and that will be his Control skill roll to activate LSC.
Round 2. Character states they wish to use the Force power Concentration to focus on his Sense roll to activate LSC.

If I understand things correctly, its goes like this:

Round 1. Roll Sense 3D+2.
Round 2. Roll Control 1D+2 (-2D MAP: banked Control for LCS, Control for Concentration, Sense skill to activate LCS). If Concentration power is successful, +4D to sense roll. 4D+2 (-2D MAP: banked Control for LCS, use of Concentration, Sense skill to activate LCS).
Round 3. LCS is now activated, but costs 2 actions to be kept "up". He decides to attack a pirate, declaring 1 action. So he makes the attack at a -2D MAP (3 actions: control, sense, lightsaber). He may +2 his lightsaber skill (Sense -2D) and his damage is 6D+2 (Control -2D).

Is this correct?

In Round 2, there is no penalty from "banking" Control. No power is up, nothing is activated yet. The rules clearly state you only suffer a MAPs if you make the multiple skill rolls in the same round. If you split them up into consecutive rounds, then LsC's Control roll does not reduce the Sense roll (or the Concentration roll). So in Round 2 your Control roll for Concentration and the Sense roll to complete LsC would each only have a -1D per the normal MAP rule. After the Sense roll is also successful, then the power is activated and can be kept up, with the -2D "MAP" from the two-skill power effective all actions and reactions.

As far as the specific Force skill bonuses you get from the power, RAW is less clear. It seems from the example on R&E p. 148 that the bonuses are the full Force skills if you had activated the power from rolling the skills in two consecutive rounds, or the full skills -1D if you had activated it from rolling both skills in the same round. So the original MAP situation seems to carry through for those.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Another thing the same player pointed out to me was about Control Pain.

Quote:
Control Pain
Control Difficulty: Very Easy for wounded or stunned characters, Easy for incapacitated characters, Difficult for mortally wounded characters.

The power can be kept “up,” so the character can ignore the pain of injuries for a long period of time. However, whenever the character is injured again, the Jedi must make a new control pain roll, with the difficulty being the new level of injury.

Effect: A wounded Jedi who controls pain can act as if she has not been wounded, starting with the round after the power roll has been made. The wound is not healed, but the character doesn’t suffer the penalties of being wounded: a wounded Jedi doesn’t suffer any die code penalties; an incapacitated character can still act normally, as can a mortally wounded character.

This power can also be used to shrug off any stun results.


So this power is considered an action to invoke and to keep up. Yes a character who is stunned or wounded 1 that's a -1D negative modifier. SO its pretty useless unless the character is wounded 2, but most effective if incapacitated or worse. Its pretty much a throw away power. Thoughts?

Agreed. It only becomes beneficial for twice wounded or worse.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In Round 2, there is no penalty from "banking" Control. No power is up, nothing is activated yet. The rules clearly state you only suffer a MAPs if you make the multiple skill rolls in the same round. If you split them up into consecutive rounds, then LsC's Control roll does not reduce the Sense roll (or the Concentration roll). So in Round 2 your Control roll for Concentration and the Sense roll to complete LsC would each only have a -1D per the normal MAP rule. After the Sense roll is also successful, then the power is activated and can be kept up, with the -2D "MAP" from the two-skill power effective all actions and reactions.


So its considered a combined skill roll spread over two rounds. Okay I could see not imposing a MAP for the banked control roll in that case.

Quote:
The Jedi may roll each skill in consecutive rounds at no penalty, or may attempt to fully activate the power in one round, incurring normal multiple action penalties


So its official now.

Quote:
A character who is keeping a power “up” is using the power’s Force skills as long as the power is operating, and loses die codes as if taking actions.


So in this case it says that LCS would be a -2 MAP penalty, but there is no MAP while invoking a power. I think we have an answer. Thanks guys!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome.

Error wrote:
I must have been using Force powers wrong all these years then. If a given PC wanted to use Lightsaber Combat, I'd just have that player roll Control and Sense. If both are successes, the character has LC "up" and takes a -1D MAP for that for any subsequent rounds while it is "up".

I had no idea every single roll concerning Force powers was supposed to count as an action and increase MAP's. Seems super counter intuitive to me, and also counter to WEG's other simple-to-understand D6 stuff.

I'm not going to argue it because it's ITR, but I'm probably not going to use these rules exactly as they are either. Mostly since they seriously bog down Force users and require constant round-by-round math that slows everyone else down too.

Also, this is just my two cents (which nobody asked for), but stuff like Lightsaber Combat costing two MAP's per round to keep up is ridiculous. I don't care what Force power it is, if it's "up" I only penalize -1D. The characters seem to still get themselves into -3D or even -4D MAP's for certain rounds, though...

Too much math and too many penalties is too much math and too many penalties.

Of course you should have it work however you want. The Force system in WEG SW is far from perfect. It is generally characterized as very difficult at low levels that starting PCs have, but then when they get more skilled they can quickly become overpowering. There have been so many attempts to revise the rules to level it out more. One way would seem to be having it be easier at first but advancement is very slow. But that's easier said than done.

You characterizing Force skills being MAPped as "counterintuitive" is strange to me. Force skills working like other skills is intuitive to me. If they worked differently to other skills, that would seem counterintuitive. I guess we have a different intuitions.

What seems counterintuitive about Force skills in RAW to me is that they are not governed by an attribute like other skills. I have The Force attribute with two normal skills, Sense and Control. Alter is an advanced skill with the first two skills at 3D each as a prerequisite. Non-Force-sensitive characters have 0D in The Force. Force-sensitivity in my game means you have at least 1D in The Force, which gives you 1D in Sense and Control by default before allocating any skill dice. That means that for 18D attribute PCs, being Force-sensitive (having Force skills) doesn't suck up an attribute die for each skill and starting Force characters are not so inept in everything else (which helps on MAPs in general). Unless you want to start out more powerful in the Force and start with more than 1D in the Force attribute. In my game all PCs start out a little more skilled than in RAW but advancement is slower.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Of course you should have it work however you want. The Force system in WEG SW is far from perfect. It is generally characterized as very difficult at low levels that starting PCs have, but then when they get more skilled they can quickly become overpowering. There have been so many attempts to revise the rules to level it out more. One way would seem to be having it be easier at first but advancement is very slow. But that's easier said than done.

You characterizing Force skills being MAPped as "counterintuitive" is strange to me. Force skills working like other skills is intuitive to me. If they worked differently to other skills, that would seem counterintuitive. I guess we have a different intuitions.

What seems counterintuitive about Force skills in RAW to me is that they are not governed by an attribute like other skills. I have The Force attribute with two normal skills, Sense and Control. Alter is an advanced skill with the first two skills at 3D each as a prerequisite. Non-Force-sensitive characters have 0D in The Force. Force-sensitivity in my game means you have at least 1D in The Force, which gives you 1D in Sense and Control by default before allocating any skill dice. That means that for 18D attribute PCs, being Force-sensitive (having Force skills) doesn't suck up an attribute die for each skill and starting Force characters are not so inept in everything else (which helps on MAPs in general). Unless you want to start out more powerful in the Force and start with more than 1D in the Force attribute. In my game all PCs start out a little more skilled than in RAW but advancement is slower.

I guess I always figured doing something with your feelings/intellect (accessing the Force) could be done concurrently with nearly anything. Meaning I have never penalized characters' Force skills when they want to bring up LSC and attack in the same round. I guess that does tend to tip the scales toward the more advanced characters even more than the official system.

My thoughts about non-Force-sensitives being at a huge disadvantage when compared to advanced Jedi is that it is absolutely true. However, my fix for it is different than modifying rules. It is adding other things that are available only to non-Force-sensitives. Think feats from D&D or just adding special abilities that cost CP. This will allow non-Force sensitives to advance later in the character's life much more than Jedi do. I would call them "Proficiencies" or something else similar. For example:

Proficiency name: Fleet of Foot
CP cost:* 25
Prerequisites: Either Running or Sneak 6D, and either Perception or Dexterity 3D
Effect:
Whenever a character with Fleet of Foot moves at any speed on foot, he or she does so silently. This provides a +1D bonus to both Running and Sneak whenever the character is on foot. Additionally, from this point forward, whenever this character improves Running or Sneak by +1, that character gets +2 instead (this essentially doubles that character's CP investments in these two skills).

Or maybe this clause could also be added (but I would up ^ the CP cost of the Proficiency to 40-50):
Also from this point forward, any CP spent on a Running or Sneak skill roll gets the character two more dice, not one.

* Proficiencies (I'll call them) can be bought between sessions or whenever there is a rest, or if the GM wants, he or she may restrict this to between adventures or even less often. Also, this is a relatively underpowered one. There would be others in the 50-100 CP range as well.
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