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Sylvre Phire
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

I was turning over ideas in my head for foes in my current Star Wars campaign and my mind happened to wander toward COMPForce... You know, those pretty boys who get all the cool toys, best medical care, and are supposedly the Emperor's favorites/elite while the stormtrooper corps couldn't hit the broadside of a blaster bolt with a bantha.

My question is this: has anybody every actually used them in their games? Did you use them as-is or reskin them as more-skilled stormtroopers. I know they're pretty much non-canon now anyway, but, regardless of edition/version of the RPG played, how did it work out?

Thanks!

Sylvre Phire
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

Sylvre Phire wrote:
...while the stormtrooper corps couldn't hit the broadside of a blaster bolt with a bantha.


...How do you hit a blaster bolt with a bantha? Throw a bantha at it? And do blaster bolts even have broadsides?Shocked

Sylvre Phire wrote:
My question is this: has anybody every actually used them in their games? Did you use them as-is or reskin them as more-skilled stormtroopers. I know they're pretty much non-canon now anyway, but, regardless of edition/version of the RPG played, how did it work out?

Thanks!

Sylvre Phire


Yeah, I'm curious about this as well. And at least according to the stats found in Rules of Engagement, regular stormtroopers are actually better shots than raw COMPForce troopers (4D blaster skill for the former vs 3D for the latter). Though, to be fair, the veteran COMPForce troopers have 5D blaster skill. (I'm wondering how much of a difference the MFTAS system makes.)

Quote:
"COMPForce troopers don't shoot straight and only care about shooting."
"Stormtroopers shoot straight and don't care about casualties."
-SpecForce stereotypes.


I wouldn't mind at all if these guys got canonized.
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Methedor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Sylvre Phire wrote:
...while the stormtrooper corps couldn't hit the broadside of a blaster bolt with a bantha.


...How do you hit a blaster bolt with a bantha? Throw a bantha at it? And do blaster bolts even have broadsides?Shocked


It took any Tuskens pushing a Bantha to test this.

But to answer the poster, I have most recently used them in Edge of the Empire, though I gave them different weapons than the ridiculous stock sheet gives them (Disruptor Pistols I think) and that went pretty well as I treated them as loyalists vs jerks. It actually spawned more Bar RP with them than conflict.

In D6 I've used them a few times as more "innocent" storm troopers as the PC knew that these folks were for all intents and purposes being "Brain Washed" by propaganda to defend the empire so merely shooting them was less of an option.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly off topic, but if you're looking for ways to expand COMPNOR, this may interest you. It's a series of concepts I wrote up a while back, using the SS as a template to make COMPNOR even more evil than it already was.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

Sylvre Phire wrote:
I was turning over ideas in my head for foes in my current Star Wars campaign and my mind happened to wander toward COMPForce... You know, those pretty boys who get all the cool toys, best medical care, and are supposedly the Emperor's favorites/elite while the stormtrooper corps couldn't hit the broadside of a blaster bolt with a bantha.

My question is this: has anybody every actually used them in their games? Did you use them as-is or reskin them as more-skilled stormtroopers. I know they're pretty much non-canon now anyway, but, regardless of edition/version of the RPG played, how did it work out?

Thanks!

Sylvre Phire


Yes. More as undercover troopers/watchers, much like the cia. And when they DO get into combat, i treat them exactly as PC level opposition.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd think undercover operations for COMPNOR would be more appropriate for ISB's Enforcement Branch.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Slightly off topic, but if you're looking for ways to expand COMPNOR, this may interest you. It's a series of concepts I wrote up a while back, using the SS as a template to make COMPNOR even more evil than it already was.


Yeah, I copied all four of those new CompForce Divisions, though I didn't copy the stuff near the end of the thread because I saw that they weren't CompForce per se, but were part of COMPNOR proper that I was unfamiliar with (I really have to finish reading through Imperial Sourcebook cover to cover).

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd think undercover operations for COMPNOR would be more appropriate for ISB's Enforcement Branch.


Agent Kallus, I presume? (That was a rhetorical question, by the way; Kallus is actually part of the Investigation and Internal Affairs Divisions of ISB, not Enforcement.)

EDIT: Now that I'm looking at the separate descriptions of the Divisions of ISB at the Wook, wouldn't undercover operations fall under Investigation's purview? Enforcement just seems to be a special forces backup to Investigations agents in the field. According to this, it seems Investigations would be doing the...investigating.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, I copied all four of those new CompForce Divisions, though I didn't copy the stuff near the end of the thread because I saw that they weren't CompForce per se, but were part of COMPNOR proper that I was unfamiliar with (I really have to finish reading through Imperial Sourcebook cover to cover).

If you have questions about the ImpSB, I'm your guy. All the stuff I added fits into what I consider to be gaps in COMPNOR's organizational structure, and also ties a lot of the Empire's nastiness and mistreatment of aliens back to Compnor, rather than some faceless sub-group.

Quote:
wouldn't undercover operations fall under Investigation's purview? Enforcement just seems to be a special forces backup to Investigations agents in the field.

I should've been clearer. garhkal was talking about undercover troopers, not undercover investigators. Enforcement provides plain clothes "muscle" to Investigations and other ISB branches as needed. In effect, that makes Enforcement a group of undercover soldiers; they don't wear uniforms, they just provide backup and muscle to ISB agents.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If you have questions about the ImpSB, I'm your guy. All the stuff I added fits into what I consider to be gaps in COMPNOR's organizational structure, and also ties a lot of the Empire's nastiness and mistreatment of aliens back to Compnor, rather than some faceless sub-group.


I applaud your work on this. If and when I have questions, I'll come to you.

I never really liked the old Legends idea of the Empire capriciously discriminating against aliens just for the sake of discrimination to justify why we never saw aliens in the employ of the Empire in the movies. (High Human Culture, my @ss.) I enjoyed the lampshading of this in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook on pages 38-39. To my mind, the Emperor wouldn't be so dumb as to casually discard the specializations and talents of aliens who in certain areas exceeded the human norm. Enslaving certain races for labor (for example, like the Wookiees or Mon Cals), sure. But deliberately freezing out aliens from serving in the Imperial military even if they happened to be willing Well-Intentioned Extremists who wanted to serve the Empire? That's big-league dumb and only helps to grow the Rebellion. Such counter-productive stupidity is out of character for a man as cunning as Palpatine.

Thankfully, with the non-human Inquisitors in Rebels, we see evidence that the canon continuity is getting away from this.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I should've been clearer. garhkal was talking about undercover troopers, not undercover investigators. Enforcement provides plain clothes "muscle" to Investigations and other ISB branches as needed. In effect, that makes Enforcement a group of undercover soldiers; they don't wear uniforms, they just provide backup and muscle to ISB agents.


Plainsclothes soldiers? That's an idea I never thought of. I'm probably exposing my ignorance here, but aside from undercover MPs, is there a real-world analogue to this? Judging from what you just said, Enforcement isn't the Empire's idea of undercover MPs because they don't do any investigating. I guess when Investigations needs to make an arrest, the ISB Agent from Investigations and the Enforcement guys are all dressed as locals and just wait for the target to show up, the ISB Investigations Agent says "You're under arrest!" and the Enforcement guys make sure the target can't run? That makes sense.

But yeah, I'm curious about this. Considering that COMPNOR and several Nazi Germany organizations are similar (and the latter served as inspiration for the former), I'm wondering if there is or was a real-world historical analogue for this.

TL;DR: Is Enforcement basically what would pass for the Empire's "Secret Police?"
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Sylvre Phire
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
How do you hit a blaster bolt with a bantha? Throw a bantha at it? And do blaster bolts even have broadsides?Shocked


Well, as Methedor pointed out, many banthas (and maybe a few Tusken Raiders) died to bring us that information... Very Happy

Sutehp wrote:
Yeah, I'm curious about this as well. And at least according to the stats found in Rules of Engagement, regular stormtroopers are actually better shots than raw COMPForce troopers (4D blaster skill for the former vs 3D for the latter). Though, to be fair, the veteran COMPForce troopers have 5D blaster skill. (I'm wondering how much of a difference the MFTAS system makes.)


According to ROE, MFTAS actually only gives bonuses in two situations: +2D to weapon skills when firing at targets moving more than 10 meters per round and +2D to Perception checks in low-visibility situations. I'd actually apply the +2D bonus to shooting in low-visibility situations as well.

The only way a trooper is able to overcome the -1D Dexterity penalty is to live long enough to become a veteran and get used to wearing and moving in the armor. That's pretty much a simple and logical leap with regard to COMPForce troopers. I had to do a double take when I saw the -1D DEX penalty applied to the power armor listed on the COMPForce Assault Trooper template in Heroes & Rogues. I figure it's either A) Editorial oversight, or B) The fact that the character isn't used to the power armor. I lean heavily toward "B".

Sutehp wrote:
"COMPForce troopers don't shoot straight and only care about shooting."
"Stormtroopers shoot straight and don't care about casualties."
-SpecForce stereotypes.

I wouldn't mind at all if these guys got canonized.


Neither would I. I wasn't so much interested in their effectiveness in combat so much as I was interested in seeing if people actually used COMPForce troopers in their games.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Slightly off topic, but if you're looking for ways to expand COMPNOR, this may interest you. It's a series of concepts I wrote up a while back, using the SS as a template to make COMPNOR even more evil than it already was.


Not off topic at all, CRMcNeill. When I ran a search it was one of the top threads that popped up and so I was quick to make a PDF of it for future reference. Smile

Thanks for the input, folks! It's helped a lot!

Sylvre Phire
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Thankfully, with the non-human Inquisitors in Rebels, we see evidence that the canon continuity is getting away from this.

Actually, this is consistent with WEG's continuity, as they specifically stated that the Emperor would make exceptions to his pro-human biases in the case of Force users.

I did touch on the Empire making use of non-humans in the COMPNOR Expansion topic, although it never really went anywhere. Basically, the SS made use of (for lack of a better word) Auxiliary Corps composed of ethnic Germans and non-German nationals to augment the SS. People joined for a variety of reasons; a whole swath of volunteers from Eastern Europe joined up to oppose Stalin rather than because they believed Nazi ideology.

I could easily see COMPForce including auxiliary corps composed of aliens and near-humans, especially those with useful talents or natural abilities, but the details still need to be fleshed out. One thing the Spectre of the Past / Vision of the Future duology makes clear is that there is a lot of unrest and animosity between various alien races, which the Empire manages to suppress. I could easily see the Empire taking advantage of that racial hatred to raise Auxiliary units specifically for service against hated enemies.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Plainsclothes soldiers? That's an idea I never thought of.

Me either. In fact, based on my read of the COMPNOR Chapter in the ImpSB, I disagree with garhkal. There is nothing undercover about the canon parts of COMPForce. They are right there for all to see. Any undercover activities within the Imperial military on the part of COMPNOR are almost certainly under the purview of the ISB.


Quote:
TL;DR: Is Enforcement basically what would pass for the Empire's "Secret Police?"

I'd say that the closest equivalent to the Gestapo (since we are using the SS as an analogy) is the ISB itself, since the Gestapo was under the control of the SS, which also ran the death camps, medical experiments, SS military units, death squads, etc. Considering the SS (Schutzstaffel) was literally the "Protection Squadron", the parallels to the COMmittee for the Preservation Of the New ORder, are pretty obvious. And the SS was staffed almost exclusively by true believers in Nazi ideology.

As for Enforcement's role in the ISB, the ImpSB offers the following:
Quote:
Enforcement
Enforcement provides specialized muscle for the ISB, occasionally for Internal Affairs, but most often they lend their expertise to Investigations. Enforcement is the only division within all of COMPNOR which hires beings who are not COMPNOR members. Not only does this increase the amount of available talent, but Enforcement often has to take actions which the Select Committee would rather not be done by COMPNOR members.

Hiring outsiders causes Internal Affairs to take a keen interest in Enforcement. Internal Affairs considers the use of unindoctrinated personnel to be a bad risk, especially given the delicate nature of many of their missions. Enforcement tries to protect its operatives from unwarranted interference from Internal Affairs. The result has been a tension within the ISB as no one can avoid the conflict completely.

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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

Sylvre Phire wrote:
Not off topic at all, CRMcNeill. When I ran a search it was one of the top threads that popped up and so I was quick to make a PDF of it for future reference. Smile

Thanks for the input, folks! It's helped a lot!

Sylvre Phire

What with everything I've added in, I'm considering writing an expanded COMPNOR Chapter, with all of my additions slotted into the appropriate organizations. Is this something you or others would be interested in?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

Plainsclothes soldiers? That's an idea I never thought of. I'm probably exposing my ignorance here, but aside from undercover MPs, is there a real-world analogue to this? Judging from what you just said, Enforcement isn't the Empire's idea of undercover MPs because they don't do any investigating. I guess when Investigations needs to make an arrest, the ISB Agent from Investigations and the Enforcement guys are all dressed as locals and just wait for the target to show up, the ISB Investigations Agent says "You're under arrest!" and the Enforcement guys make sure the target can't run? That makes sense.


That's the angle i was going for. Think troops in plain clothes, trailing a team, reporting back to HQ about the rebels, before the troopers ge sent in..
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: So, COMPForce... Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
What with everything I've added in, I'm considering writing an expanded COMPNOR Chapter, with all of my additions slotted into the appropriate organizations. Is this something you or others would be interested in?


Yeah, I don't know if I'd ever be able to use it in a game, but this is definitely something I'd be interested in reading.

EDIT: I just finished reading the chapter on COMPNOR in the Imperial Sourcebook. I paid close attention to the Imperial Security Bureau section because I became a fan of Kallus from Star Wars Rebels ever since his Heel-Face Turn. I read on the Wook that he is part of both Internal Affairs and Investigations as an ISB Agent, which shows that he has to be an exceptionally talented agent to belong to both branches at once. Then I got to the part about the Re-Education branch of COMPNOR...which makes things even more terrifying for Kallus because of Re-Ed's mandate...

For those of you who don't know, Re-Ed is the branch of the ISB where COMPNOR members convicted of a crime by ISB are sent to be "rehabilitated" and "re-educated." If the re-education is successful, the former criminal is forgiven and allowed to return to his former post in COMPNOR (albeit either at a lower rank or at a post of lower importance). But for people who knew the former criminal, their newly returned colleague doesn't quite seem like the same person he was before....

Imperial Sourcebook, page 23 wrote:
Co-workers report that it is eerie working with the returnees. The returnees react strangely to the other workers, their conversation seems disjointed, their emotions out of phase with the situation. Officially, returnees are called "Graduates of Re-Education" or "Re-educated." Most COMPNOR members say the graduates have been "Rebrained."


And Kallus, as an ISB Internal Affairs Agent who likely sent at least one person to Re-Ed, knows this is what will happen to him if he gets caught. Shocked
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
That's the angle i was going for. Think troops in plain clothes, trailing a team, reporting back to HQ about the rebels, before the troopers ge sent in..

That's definitely more ISB's Enforcement branch than CompForce Assault units.
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