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Broadsword-Class Troop Transport
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject: Broadsword-Class Troop Transport Reply with quote

I came across this in the Ships Stat compilation, but I can't seem to track down a source for it in any of the books. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Also, whoever wrote up the stats for this ship, why does a ship this size end up looking like an emasculated ISD? Barely any weaponry, barely any more troop capacity, and reduced speed. Unless the troops are being transported in cruise ship level luxury, this ship is a waste of space. Based on its dimensions, it would be a perfect fit for the Evakmar/KDY troop transport mentioned in WEG's Imperial Sourcebook (but never actually stated).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my beef with the Broadsword's SAW (Stats as written), in comparison with the stats of an ISD. For those of you who are curious, refer to Gry Srth's Starship Stat compilation, page 260 (or 262 on Adobe Reader). Since no one has been able to provide me with the source for this stat, I am co-opting it for my own use.

(Broadsword vs. ISD)

Length: 1,475 vs. 1,600
Now, looking at this length and comparing it to the picture in the Stat book, this is a pretty big ship. It only gives up a little over 100 meters to an ISD (a little longer than a football field, counting the end zones). Logically speaking, such a large ship should pack a lot of weaponry, or it should carry a lot of something else.

Crew: 8,163 (skeleton 1,200 @ +20) + 53 gunners vs. 36,810 (skeleton 5,000 @ +20) + 275 gunners
Again, for ships of roughly the same size to have this sort of crew disparity, it usually means that there is a lot of excess room that isn't being used by the crew. This usually means that it is being used to carry something else.

Passengers: 10,000 (troops) vs. 9,700 (troops)
So two ships roughly the same size have basically the same passenger capacity, so all that space must be being used to transport a lot of.....cargo, maybe?

Cargo Capacity: 15,000 metric tons vs. 36,000 metric tons
Ok, I guess not. Apparently this troop transport gives each trooper his own luxury suite.

Consumables: 6 months vs. 6 years
And feeds them at an all-you-can-eat, 24-hour buffet

Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2 vs. x2
Not much to say here

Maneuverability: 1D+1 vs. 1D
Apparently some of that empty space is taken up by maneuvering thrusters

Space: 5 vs. 6
Or maybe the thrusters were just chopped from engine power

Hull: 6D vs. 7D
Shields: 3D vs. 3D
Well, whatever that thing is carrying, it sure is well protected

Sensors
I won't go into detail, but gives up very little in the way of sensor capacity or Fire Control to an ISD

Weapons: 15 Turbolaser Batteries, 10 Laser Cannon & 4 Tractor Beam vs. 60 Turbolaser Batteries, 60 Ion Cannon, 10 Tractor Beams (and 40 Point Defense Lasers if you use that rule)
Do the math...

Small Craft Capacity: 4 TIE/rc, 20 dropships & 2 Lambdas vs. 72 starfighters, 12 landing barges, 8 Lambdas, 16 Sentinels, 20 AT-AT's, 30 AT-St, plus a variety of other vessels.
If it's a big, expensive military vessel that isn't heavily armed, doesn't carry a lot of troops or a lot of useful small craft, what exactly does it do?


In summary, what we have here is a vessel that is marginally smaller than an ISD, with far less crew requirement, but almost nothing is done with that space. There is only a slight increase in troop capacity, less than half the cargo capacity, and less than 1/10th the consumables. It is slightly slower and slightly more vulnerable to damage, with less sensor power and negligible defensive weaponry. It's basically a military luxury liner.

Essentially what you have here is the stats for a Star Destroyer after you take it to the veterinarian to get its balls cut off. For the size and material that must be required to construct such a ship, you would be better off just getting yourself another Star Destroyer.

That being said, looking at the image, these stats could very easily be converted to match another vessel that was mentioned in the Imperial Sourcebook, but no stats were ever published for: the Evakmar-KDY troop transport.

Think about it. The Evakmar-KDY is supposed to be the main naval transport for Imperial Army forces. It could easily transport any of the Army's different corps types (70-75,000 men per corps, plus somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 vehicles, ranging from speeder bikes up to heavy tanks and walkers). Plus, the Evakmar-KDY was designed with room for expansion (both of the Army and the ship) in mind, so it would have a lot of extra room inside.

Plus, if you look at the drawing of the Broadsword, you can see its ISD roots. The missing 125 meters obviously comes from squaring off the bow, and the narrow stern probably indicates two main thrusters instead of the ISD's three, and the trimmed-down flanking overhangs could conceal the massive launching bays necessary for the number of barges and dropships necessary to land a full corps or embark one.

Now, that is a list of my reasons why I'm changing the stats. My next post will be my version of the stats (apologies to whoever wrote up this ship in the first place, but your version sucks).
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changed the name to the Dictator-Class to better reflect Imperial nomenclature.

Craft: Evakmar-KDY's Dictator-Class Heavy Troop Transport
Affiliation: Empire
Era: Rebellion
Type: Heavy Troop Transport
Scale: Capital
Length: 1,475 meters
Skill: Capital Ship Piloting: Dictator-Class
Crew: 8,163 (Skeleton: 1,200 @ +20), Gunners: 73
Crew Skill: Astrogation 3D, Capital Ship Gunnery 3D+2, Capital Ship Piloting 4D+2, Capital Ship Shields 3D+2, Sensors 3D, Starship Gunnery 3D
Passengers: 120,000 (troops)
Cargo Capacity: 800,000 metric tons
Consumables: 6 months
Cost: Not Available For Sale
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Hyperdrive Backup: x10
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 4
Hull: 5D
Shields: 2D
Sensors
Passive: 30 /1D
Scan: 60 / 2D
Search: 120 / 3D
Focus: 4 / 4D
Weapons:

15 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 5 front, 5 left, 5 right
Crew: 1 (5), 2 (10)
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/72/150km
Damage: 5D

20 Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: 5 front, 5 left, 5 right, 5 rear
Crew: 2
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 2-6/24/50km
Damage:2D+2

4 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 2 left, 2 right (one per hangar bay)
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60m
Damage: 4D

Small Craft Complement:
40 TIE Fighters* (1 Army Ground Support Wing of 24 TIE/ln, 12 TIE/gt and 4 TIE/fc)
24 Landing Barges
36 Sentinel-Class Landing Craft (12 Shuttle, 24 Cargo Lifter)
8 Lambda-Class Shuttles
Various additional small craft
*This unit is generally attached to whatever corps is being transported. When the Army unit off-loads, the TIE fighters are off-loaded as well.

Capsule:
The Dictator-Class is the Imperial Military's premiere transport vessel. Built by Kuat Drive Yard's Evakmar subsidiary, this vessel is designed for ease of manufacturing by using many of the standardized components found in KDY's Imperator-Class Star Destroyer. This vessel was designed to meet a requirement for a corps-level army transport, and has been generally well received. Although well armored and shielded, it is not intended to serve as a front-line combat vessel, and will generally not enter a star system until the system has been secured by Imperial Navy Superiority units.

The Dictator is built around its barracks complexes and massive internal garage and storage bays, and is easily capable of transporting any of the Imperial Army's corps-level units. The troop accommodations are spartan and utilitarian, but not nearly as cramped as the facilities on earlier vessels like the Acclamator-Class, and some provision has been made on board for recreation facilities for troops on long-term deployment. Evakmar designed the Dictator with an eye towards the growing trend of expansion in the Imperial military, and as such, the ship includes troop and storage capacity for a unit 50% larger than the standard Army corps at that time. In addition, the interior has been designed to be modular, so that its cargo capacity can easily be shifted between troop, vehicle, and cargo storage facilities as needed.

The Dictator's massive transport capacity is useless if those troops can't be deployed quickly, so the ship includes four cavernous docking bays; two on either flank. The ship's small craft complement is divided equally between the four bays, so that combat damage or a catastrophic accident will not deprive the ship of its small craft support capability. Furthermore, the docking bays are connected by a network of internal transit corridors, so that small craft can be transferred from one bay to another without exiting the ship. This comes in especially handy if one of the bays is obstructed for any reason.

Dictators are also used by the Imperial Navy’s Technical Service units as mobile repair facilities. In this configuration, a large portion of the ship’s crew decks are converted to storage and warehousing for a vast collection of tools, parts and other pieces of equipment necessary to keep the wide variety of ships of the Imperial Navy operational. The ship’s docking bays house a wide variety of repair platforms, work pods, light tugs, shuttles and cargo barges used to perform repairs on capital ships that are beyond the scope of the ship’s crew, yet are not so severe as to require the services of a full shipyard or deepdock.

In rare cases, the Dictator has been pressed into service as a starfighter carrier by removing the landing barges and dropships and replacing them with TIE fighter wings. Although the Broadsword is not designed as a combatant, a single vessel can contribute massive amounts of TIE fighters into a battle in support of other ships. It is important to note, however, that the Dictator-Class is a transport, not a carrier. Its armaments are strictly defensive in nature, and its sensors and command and control systems are not designed or intended for facilitating a space battle.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

120,000 troops.... Way too much for this size ship. Heck even the SSD doesn't have that many, it only has 38000....
Now i could see 12000

Plus lookin at the pic for the ship, it has a large chunk missing out of it;s center.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without seeing any fluff or knowing the context for this stat block, it's really hard to make a fair evaluation. It isn't inconceivable that this ship had a lower production run and simply had a less efficient design.
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
you can see its ISD roots. The missing 125 meters obviously comes from squaring off the bow, and the narrow stern probably indicates two main thrusters instead of the ISD's three, and the trimmed-down flanking overhangs could conceal the massive launching bays necessary for the number of barges and dropships necessary to land a full corps or embark one.


I'm glad you posted these stats; IMC it's difficult to assemble crew to fill an ISD and many have been converted to other tasks. So this will be good reference for the inevitable military-transport conversion. Thanks for sharing.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
120,000 troops.... Way too much for this size ship. Heck even the SSD doesn't have that many, it only has 38000....
Now i could see 12000


The Imperial Sourcebook (page 99): "Imperial Military Planners from each branch designed the transport ship to hold all corps types, building in the possibility for expansion into both the starship and the unit."

I didn't just pull the number out of the air. The average Imperial Army corps has between 70-75,000 personnel, not counting all their equipment, so any stat for the Evakmar-KDY would need at least that much.

Plus, if you check the sidebar on Page 84, entitled "The Order of Battle and Future Growth of the Army", you get an idea of the true scale of what the Empire considers "expansion. They aren't just adding a few thousand troops. At full strength on the Army OB, every unit from Platoon Level up would be doubled in size.

The example they use is that, on the current level of the OB, an baseline armored battlegroup (division equivalent) would have 10.090 combat troopers out of a total strength of 16,346, with 1,132 repulsorlift vehicles and 318 heavy tanks.

However, if the battlegroup and all of its subordinate units were expanded to "full strength" based on the current OB, that same unit would now have 318,062 combat troopers out of a total strength 324,318, with as many support droids as there are troops, plus 36.084 repulsorlift vehicles and 14,480 heavy tanks.

Based on those guidelines, 120,000 is not only reasonable; it might not be enough.

As far as comparing this ship to an ISD or an SSD, you're forgetting mission. Both of those vessels are designed to serve a variety of different missions; command ship, carrier, battle platform, assault transport, etc. This ship is designed for one mission and one mission only: troop transport

garhkal wrote:
Plus lookin at the pic for the ship, it has a large chunk missing out of it;s center.


So? The thing is still almost a mile long, with massive internal volume. Plus these Army troops aren't going to be staying on the thing long-term, so they can pack them in like sardines; they'll only be on the ship as long as it takes to go from one planet to the other.

When I look at the picture, I see those four big blocks surrounding the ship's command tower. Those are where the troops would be housed, and on a rough-scale, each one would have the internal volume of a stadium, but a stadium filled in with 3 meter decks and packed with troop barracks.

Plus, you're letting WEG's idea of internal capacity set your benchmarks. In the real world, a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier is just over 1,000 feet long and carries a crew of almost 6,000. 1,475 meters come in just shy of 5 times longer than a Nimitz-class, and there is an even greater disparity of overall internal volume (after all, the ISD and the Broadsword are both much taller and much wider than an aircraft carrier).

IMO, the reason that an ISD's crew is set relatively low is that the designers had to plan in additional living space for the crew since they might spend years at a time on board. For psychological reasons, the crew would need to have "breathing room", and as such, the ISD was designed for more comfortable long-term quarters for its crew. Not necessarily a cruise ship, but certainly not forcing them to live and work in a walk-in closet.

The Broadsword, on the other hand is the SW navy equivalent of a Greyhound bus; pack them in and get them from point A to point B. The vessel's actual crew quarters are much larger, and kept separate from the troop barracks, as these quarters are designed with the same long-term deployments as the ISD in mind.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Without seeing any fluff or knowing the context for this stat block, it's really hard to make a fair evaluation. It isn't inconceivable that this ship had a lower production run and simply had a less efficient design.


I think my second post makes it pretty obvious that "less efficient" is an understatement. The original design, with 10,000 troops, isn't even capable of transporting one Imperial Army battlegroup. There simply isn't a reason that the Imperial military would go for a ship like this when it has other vessels that are better equipped for the mission than this one. And since no one can tell me what the original source is for this ship, I can only assume its homebrew (which makes sense, considering how ridiculous the stats are). After all, if you look through the Starship Stat compilation, there are some vessels there with no source attribution that are obviously homebrew. So I took the image of a patently useless vessel and applied it to a vessel that should have stats somewhere, but doesn't.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barrataria wrote:
I'm glad you posted these stats; IMC it's difficult to assemble crew to fill an ISD and many have been converted to other tasks. So this will be good reference for the inevitable military-transport conversion. Thanks for sharing.


Thanks for your interest, but this isn't actually a conversion. This is supposed to be the stats for the Evakmar-KDY troop transport mentioned in the Imperial Sourcebook. The Evakmar-KDY is not a converted ISD; it was designed from the keel up as a heavy troop transport. However, in all my years of interest in the SWU, I have never once seen a good set of stats for the Evakmar-KDY, nor have I seen a picture that did it justice. The picture of the Broadsword seemed a perfect fit, both for the size and for the mission. Because of its obvious similarity to an ISD, I decided to make it a vessel produced with many standardized KDY parts and pieces of equipment.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On reflection, I'm going to edit the number of small craft carried. I wrote up these stats late at night, and I used the baseline of an ISD's small craft capacity (as in, if the ISD carries a division and a Broadsword carries a corps, then it must have 4 times as many landing craft as an ISD).

The difference, however, must factor in not just size, but mission. The ISD is an assault transport; its mission is to get as much firepower on the ground as it can, as quickly as it can. The Broadsword, on the other hand, is intended to deploy its troops into beachheads that have already been secured by assault troops, so getting troops on the ground and into combat rapidly is not nearly the priority that it is in the case of ground assault.

As such, I'm revising the stats as follows:

Small Craft Complement:
40 TIE Fighters* (1 Army Ground Support Wing of 24 TIE/ln, 12 TIE/gt and 4 TIE/fc)
16 Landing Barges
24 Sentinel-Class Landing Craft (8 Shuttle, 16 Cargo Lifter)
8 Lambda-Class Shuttles
Various additional small craft
*This unit is generally attached to whatever corps is being transported. When the Army unit off-loads, the TIE fighters are off-loaded as well.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Thanks for your interest, but this isn't actually a conversion.


I know what you are doing, I'm interested in comparing it to get alt stats for various configurations of ISDs. So, thanks for sharing is all I meant.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barrataria wrote:
crmcneill wrote:
Thanks for your interest, but this isn't actually a conversion.


I know what you are doing, I'm interested in comparing it to get alt stats for various configurations of ISDs. So, thanks for sharing is all I meant.


Oops. My bad. If you're looking for alternate ISD configurations, check out my stats for the Tector-Class Star Destroyer. You might find some ideas there, too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Imperial Sourcebook (page 99): "Imperial Military Planners from each branch designed the transport ship to hold all corps types, building in the possibility for expansion into both the starship and the unit."

I didn't just pull the number out of the air. The average Imperial Army corps has between 70-75,000 personnel, not counting all their equipment, so any stat for the Evakmar-KDY would need at least that much.


To hold all Corps type, is not meaning it has a full CORP unit. Each branch of the imp mil has their own corps (army, navy, marines etc).. That is what it is getting at.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
To hold all Corps type, is not meaning it has a full CORP unit. Each branch of the imp mil has their own corps (army, navy, marines etc).. That is what it is getting at.


You are grasping at straws and making things up. For starters, the Imperial military in the Imperial Sourcebook doesn't even have Marines; they have Naval Troopers, and Naval Troopers aren't even described in the Sector Group Organization chapter. By their description, they are essentially armed ship's crew, performing duties like security, hangar traffic control, monitoring sensor arrays, etc., but also being available for combat at a moment's notice.

Secondly, as described in the Imperial Sourcebook, there is no Imperial Air Force, no Imperial Coast Guard, no Imperial Marines (and even the Imperial Marines found on Wookiepedia just look like another variation on stormtroopers). There is just the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy, supported by the Stormtroopers. Both branches of the Imperial armed forces even field their own TIE fighter units.

Imperial Sourcebook, page 104: "As a troop line's function is intimately connected with the Army, troop lines vary less than other lines. The Army considers consistency a virtue. A single transport is designed to carry a corps, but often carries less than a single corps, as subordinate elements are assigned to other vessels."

Now I expect you're going to come back to me next with the line about how the ship often carries less than a full corps. I would respond by saying that, just because it often carries less, that doesn't mean that it isn't designed to carry more than a full Army corps. After all, the designers (both Army and Navy) "built in the possibility for expansion into both the starship and the unit," i.e. just because it can carry 120,000 troops, that doesn't mean that it always does.

In the Imperial Sourcebook, the word Corps is used is to describe an Army unit composed of four battlegroups (division-sized units) plus an auxiliary battlegroup composed of a ground support TIE wing and three CompForce auxiliary regiments. There are four kinds of corps in the Imperial Army; Line, Atrisian (or Assault), Mobile and Armored, and baseline combat strength for these units ranges from roughly 70-75,000 men and roughly 3,000 to 6,500 vehicles.

If you do the math, matching the total number of corps in a Sector Army against the total number of Evakmar-KDY transports in an assault fleet, each vessel would have to carry a full corps to match the Army's numbers.

According to the Imperial Sourcebook Sector Group Organization:
Army:
4 corps to an Army (one of each type)
2 Armies to a Systems Army (8 corps)
2 Systems Armies to a Sector Army(16 corps, equally mixed between the four types)

Navy:
2 Transports to a Troop Line
2 Troop Lines in a Troop Squadron (4 transports)
2 Troop Squadrons in a Transport Force (8 transports)
2 Transport Forces in an Assault Fleet (16 transports)

16 corps, 16 transports. the math doesn't lie.

To cap that off, I quote page 101 of the Imperial Sourcebook: "The sector army includes every single trooper in an Assault Fleet"

The word "corps" is used one other time in the Imperial Sourcebook, referring to the Imperial Navy's Corps of Engineering, but that refers to a single organization that covers all the engineering projects taking place in every Sector Group across the galaxy, and the full membership of the Imperial Navy's Corps of Engineering is most likely in the hundreds of millions, far larger than even the largest of the Imperial Army's combat corps, and the odds the entire Engineering Corps being able to fit onto a single vessel is unlikely unless the vessel in question is a Death Star.

Based on this information, the only logical conclusion is that a single Evakmar-KDY transport is specifically designed to carry any of the four types of Imperial Army corps (page 104). In addition, this vessel is designed with input of planners from each branch (the Army and the Navy) to hold all corps types, building in the possibility for expansion into both the starship and the unit (page 99).

I'm quoting the facts as written, while you are using untenable logic and leaps of imagination and supposition to support an unsupportable viewpoint.

UPDATE:
Page 100 of the Dark Empire Sourcebook: Mon Calamari Evacuation Cruisers, modified at breakneck speed and extremely short notice, could pack in up to 150,000 refugees for short trips, and they are almost 300 meters shorter than my proposed design. The notation states that transporting that many passengers was extremely risky, but a larger ship that was designed from the keel up for the express purpose of hauling large numbers of people should be more than capable of packing in a smaller amount.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at some point toying with the idea that the Evakmar transports would be inverted U-shapes to facilitate a protected hangar that's far larger than what any other Imperial ship carries. This would help with dropship operations. Maybe the Broadsword could have an elongated hangar to help it dump out all troopships at once instead of doing inherently dangerous maneuvering with tractor beams to get them to the launch bay?
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