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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10293
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | So as i asked earlier, LS combat should be the and all and be all of defense? |
No.
Lightsaber Combat focuses too much on the weapon instead of the Jedi holding it. . |
Some of us though, don't think LS combat shuld expand to cover all forms f defense though. Jedi NEED some sort of weak spot... |
And some of us are completely unsurprised that certain WEG reactionaries are resistant to any suggestion of change to the Holy Writ as It has been Revealed unto us. |
I actually don't think RAW grognardism is his issue here. I think he wants Jedi to have a weak spot due to his evil GMness.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I actually don't think RAW grognardism is his issue here. I think he wants Jedi to have a weak spot due to his evil GMness. |
That's a strong possibility, although I'm inclined to believe it's a combination of the two.
I agree that Jedi (and Force Users in general) should have exploitable weaknesses, but those weaknesses should duplicate what we see in the films. WEG's version of the Force was passable, if not ideal, but the EU has moved on to offer more details of the Force, and the gaming rules for the Force should evolve to match.
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Sutehp
Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I actually don't think RAW grognardism is his issue here. I think he wants Jedi to have a weak spot due to his evil GMness. |
That's a strong possibility, although I'm inclined to believe it's a combination of the two.
I agree that Jedi (and Force Users in general) should have exploitable weaknesses, but those weaknesses should duplicate what we see in the films. WEG's version of the Force was passable, if not ideal, but the EU has moved on to offer more details of the Force, and the gaming rules for the Force should evolve to match. |
Indeed, after seeing Kyle Katarn in action in the Dark Forces video games, the idea of Force Lightning automatically earning a Dark Side Point (to name just one thing in particular) is obsolete.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Video games are pretty far down on my list of reliable sources of reference for the EU.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Video games are pretty far down on my list of reliable sources of reference for the EU. |
There's long been this weird dichotomy in force use, though... attempting to crush someone with force-thrown objects is OK, but it's wrong to shoot them with lightning or simply snuff out their life? (I'm looking at you, Yoda)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Video games are pretty far down on my list of reliable sources of reference for the EU. |
There's long been this weird dichotomy in force use, though... attempting to crush someone with force-thrown objects is OK, but it's wrong to shoot them with lightning or simply snuff out their life? (I'm looking at you, Yoda) |
The dichotomy becomes less troublesome when an examination of the evidence strongly indicates that the Jedi definition of "defense" permits the Jedi to redirect attacks on themselves back at their attackers.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | If the films and tv shows are any example, here's how to defeat a Jedi:1). Keep your distance (Jedi are most formidable in Melee range).
2). Use weapons that can't be deflected back (Firearms, Flamethrowers, Grenades, etc.)
3). Overwhelm their defenses with multiple attacks, or overwhelm them in general with MAPs.
4). Just because some Jedi are capable of amazing feats does not mean that all of them are. Set the Difficulty on a power high enough, or cap any bonuses low enough, and all but the most powerful Jedi will fail.
Jedi should be limited in ways that conform to the how the Force is presented in the EU, not some arbitrary, outdated formula. |
But if you are trying to modify LS combat t where they get its bonuses on ALL defenses, inc dodge, then that kinda neuters points 2 and 3...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Then it's a good thing that that's not what I'm doing.
What I'm going for is throwing out the power Lightsaber Combat entirely, and folding the relevant portions into an expanded version of Combat Sense, with the main difference being that, rather than Combat Sense' flat +2D bonus, the bonuses will be on a sliding scale based on how well the Force user rolled Sense to activate the power. The bonus will not be on a 1/1 basis, but will instead scale up at a rate of 1D per 4-6 points of success on the Sense roll.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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What irritates me about WEG's approach to Lightsaber Combat is the notion that the Jedi's reasons for choosing the lightsaber must be somehow related to the weapon's innate effectiveness, and thus must be represented by a uniquely powerful usage rule that can't be duplicated by other weapons. My read on the Jedi's use of the lightsaber is that it is as much a symbolic and moral choice as opposed to it being an ultra-powerful weapon, and symbolic and moral choices are not something that can be encapsulated in a stat.
A Jedi who loses his lightsaber does not stop being a Jedi; his strength comes from the Force, not the weapon that can be taken from him. In ROTS, we see Obi-Wan use both an electro-staff and a blaster pistol effectively, even though neither are his weapon of choice. Does the Force stop working properly for him just because he lost his grip on his lightsaber?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:43 am Post subject: |
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No, but neither did it look like he was doing more damage with them than normal, cause he was a jedi..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | No, but neither did it look like he was doing more damage with them than normal, cause he was a jedi.. |
Which is why I'm removing the Control stacking with Damage aspect of Lightsaber Combat. Any boost to damage will be the result of an exceptionally high To Hit roll, combined with the RoE Optional Damage Rules.
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Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
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Location: Any blackberry patch.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Jedi should be limited in ways that conform to the how the Force is presented in the EU, not some arbitrary, outdated formula. |
Down a dangerous path, this line of thinking takes us.
I agree with you generally, but the last ten years of EU books have completely diluted the canonical fact that there are two (and only two) sides to the Force: the Light and the Dark. All the philosophical mumbo-jumbo about Force evilness or goodness equaling intent is nothing more than a collection of fiats by bored writers in the Vong arc and the Legacy series.
The SWU has always been dichotomous and a clear-cut story of good vs. evil, not chaotic good vs. neutral evil vs. chaotic neutral, blah blah blah. In my games, you're either on the Light side or you're an NPC. That's how this game was designed, or else characters who turn to the Dark Side wouldn't automatically become NPC's.
I'm sure your view is similar, but I wanted to put it out there that the EU doesn't always represent the Force the same way the canon does, particularly over the last decade before its conversion to "Legends".
EDIT: A note on the LC debate...you have to consider that the power was conceived of during development in the late 80's, when so far, the only lightsaber duels that had been seen anywhere were those fought between two old men or between an old man and a boy. Once the prequels came out, and the various "powers" of the Jedi became better known, many of the original Force powers became either underpowered or not inclusive enough. So yes, the canon has changed, and it follows that the extant Force powers should ALL be revisited to see if they conform with the new canon. How much the EU plays into doing that is questionable, not least because it is now not canon whatsoever.
So I think there is the possibility of a grognard-esque tinge to this topic...but only in the sense that it seems CRM is having an issue letting go of the EU as a source of insight about the Force. There is sufficient information in existing canon to do exactly what he is trying to do anyway.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose I should clarify that, by "EU", I include the prequel films, since they are part of the "expansion" from the classic trilogy. Any material from the non-cinematic EU that contradicts the films should obviously be thrown out.
My take has always been that WEG, through no particular fault of their own, made certain arbitrary choices about where the boundaries were set in the Force. When making the prequel, George obviously didn't feel any need to conform to those boundaries. The vast majority of the conflicts between what we "know" about the Force in the Classic Era and what we found out about the Force in the prequels is based on the fact that our perceptions were, for the most part, viewed through the lense of WEG's Force rules.
If nothing else, it's pretty clear that the prequel Jedi's definition of "defense" differs from that of WEG Jedi...
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Dustflier
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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Location: Upstate New York
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | I agree with you generally, but the last ten years of EU books have completely diluted the canonical fact that there are two (and only two) sides to the Force: the Light and the Dark. |
I would actually argue that there is only one true "side" to the Force. The "Dark Side," as it is called, is a corruption of the Force. It isn't a separate thing, just what happens when an immoral or corruptible person uses it for selfish reasons.
The dichotomy of good vs. evil is in the user, not the Force. This is why it's such a personal, intimate moment when Luke steps back from the edge of darkness in RotJ.
We all make good and bad, light and dark decisions every day. It's relatable to us. It doesn't take the Force to make that a thing.
I use Dark Side points in my game. However, the biggest "good vs. evil" character arc I have in my campaign is of a non-force sensitive character. He is an incredibly violent "Madclaw" wookiee who has hidden his past and now become a general in the Rebellion. He tends toward brutality, lethal action, and ends-justify-the-means tactics, but is trying really hard to be a good man and the leader the Rebellion deserves.
In a recent session, he "lightly" tortured a captured Imperial assassin by holding her chest down so that she couldn't breathe. Meanwhile, he offered for her to join the Rebellion. She accepted - but once freed, led him into an ambush in which he lost his last eye (he started the campaign with only one). Once he was incapacitated, she explained that she would have considered his offer in earnest, had he not resorted to the same tactics the Empire would use. He really felt the anguish of his character. It was a powerful moment, and a natural consequence of his Dark Side actions.
Now he's undergoing procedures to get his eyes replaced and has a lot of time to think and consider his path.
I didn't need the Force for any of that, because we can all fall to the "Dark Side."
Edit: Please excuse how off-topic this is. To bring it full-circle, I would probably rule that slugs or kinetic rounds may be deflected, but may not be reflected back. Also, I would probably roll a d6 for each round deflected in this way, and any 1s would indicate that molten metal has hit the deflector.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Dustflier wrote: |
Also, I would probably roll a d6 for each round deflected in this way, and any 1s would indicate that molten metal has hit the deflector. |
Maybe that could be the complication the jedi gets if he gets a 1 on the wild die.. That he did melt the bullet, but gets a face full of molten metal for his troubles..
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