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Firearms and force users
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taylor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Firearms and force users Reply with quote

So a hot debate I am in regards the narrow definition of lightsaber combat and firearms.

Strictly by the LSC description can parry blaster bolts, not slugs.

Thus my force users are looking for me to expand tk to allow them to catch bullets. Should firearms be the Achilles heel of a force user?

The scenario is looking as Darth Bob is amazing but while bringing up force lighting, local kid joe, pulls out a firearm, like Indiana Jone and shoot Darth Bob in the gut. Darth Bob has neglected his dodge skill and thus is humbled by a kid with a firearm.

I am resisting that I feel asking force users to buy a dodge skill is a reasonable solution to not getting hit, but the force users contend since I let them catch grenades with tk, a bullet should be either parriable or catchable as asking the force user to spend points in dodge is too much to ask.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on using lightsabers against bullets is that the lightsaber blade is a plasma column that is at least a few centimeters wide, so a Jedi (or Sith) wielding his blade essentially incinerates the bullet as the width of the blade is more than wide enough to intercept something as small as a bullet.

I dunno what other people's take on this is.
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taylor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see that as a response. My goal here was the prevent force users from being one trick invulnerable ponies. As they put up light saber combat and it is very difficult for ranged attacks to ever hit, thus the invulnerability bubble of a force user with a lightsaber. I am trying to balance it out with the gun heros.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Firearms and force users Reply with quote

taylor wrote:
So a hot debate I am in regards the narrow definition of lightsaber combat and firearms.

Strictly by the LSC description can parry blaster bolts, not slugs.

Thus my force users are looking for me to expand tk to allow them to catch bullets. Should firearms be the Achilles heel of a force user?


They need something that is an achillies heel. Just like everything else out there has to have some weakness, to ME firearms is that for Jedi.
Use a shotgun so their LS can't block the shot spread. Use Ex tipped rounds so when they use their LS to parry it, the heating up of the bullet goes BOOM..
BUT in relation to the question your party is on about. A Light saber can and SHOULD be able to at least block most slugs, like say from a 9mm, 3.57 or maginum. NOT SURE if it should be able to parry a .50 cal shell, or the spray from an assault rifle on full auto..

Quote:

I am resisting that I feel asking force users to buy a dodge skill is a reasonable solution to not getting hit, but the force users contend since I let them catch grenades with tk, a bullet should be either parriable or catchable as asking the force user to spend points in dodge is too much to ask.


The different there is that the grenade is NOT FLYING at 500+ feet per second velocities!
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taylor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now see that even creating a parry vs slugs is a wider ranged topic than I expected. I had forgotten about full auto sprays, the spread of a shot gun and that each pellet is it's own moving target, and the possibilities to manufacture the ammunition to be special new problem for the force user,

So in larger is this star wars, should force users to be able to parry slugs, did I rules lawyer this too much by using the fact that WEG used blasters in their description?

Why would everyone not walk around and mow down force users with automatic rifles? Why would a force user not carry an automatic rifle to best the Mr Darth as opposed to a lightsaber?


So I am seeking a balance between the gun heroes and force users, firearms, flamethrowers and gas attacks seemed to be nice solutions to give incentive for the force user to buy into their dodge skill and not default everything to a force based skill which covers a lot already.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't let Force Users parry firearms; blaster bolts are slower, fatter, and more visible than slugs, which can also be silenced.

So why doesn't everyone use firearms?

Because if you hit a firearm with a blaster, there's a not-bad chance that all your ammo explodes due to rapid heating and electrical discharge.

Because you need 90 different types of ammo, but only one kind of blaster pack.

Because 100 shots for a .45 is heavy, and for a blaster pistol is a 9 volt.

Because Jedi are rare and blasters kill average people just as well.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylor wrote:
I now see that even creating a parry vs slugs is a wider ranged topic than I expected. I had forgotten about full auto sprays, the spread of a shot gun and that each pellet is it's own moving target, and the possibilities to manufacture the ammunition to be special new problem for the force user,


It's a subject that's come up a few times over the years, and different people have mulled it over. Especially when you get a few old-timers (like myself) in the room, then it does tend to open a can of worms.

taylor wrote:

So in larger is this star wars, should force users to be able to parry slugs, did I rules lawyer this too much by using the fact that WEG used blasters in their description?

I think you may have taken them a little to strictly literally. Blasters are the most common weapon, and so I think they just decided to save space and not list every weapon with which LSC would work, when 99 out of 100 gamers are going to use a blaster.

taylor wrote:

Why would everyone not walk around and mow down force users with automatic rifles? Why would a force user not carry an automatic rifle to best the Mr Darth as opposed to a lightsaber?

The same reason why we don't do it in real life. The same reason why I don't carry my favorite knife in Boston. And the very same reason why my boss won't let me burn out the stump near the driveway at work. It's illegal. Really really illegal. Nobody wants to go to an Imperial penal colony on the off-chance that they'll meet one of these rare mystic warriors.

That and full-auto is a real pain rules-wise in D6. The mechanic just isn't set up well for it. It may be one of the reasons why you see so few of these weapons.
taylor wrote:

So I am seeking a balance between the gun heroes and force users, firearms, flamethrowers and gas attacks seemed to be nice solutions to give incentive for the force user to buy into their dodge skill and not default everything to a force based skill which covers a lot already.


Heh... yeah, flame throwers are a great one. It has quite a profound affect when the PC isn't expecting one to show up. Also, keep things like deck-sweepers in mind (broad-blast stun weapons), carbonite rifles, stohkli spray sticks, etc.

Not to mention sniper-type slug weapons have range. Put your enemies at half a click's distance. It will take several rounds for the Jedi to get to their position. All the while, the rest of the bounty hunter's team is coming at them with flame throwers, and you can MAP them into a serious threat.
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taylor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it an unfair burden to the force users to expect they defend against firearms with dodge instead of an LSC parry? The issue results that I have a character, or a couple, realizing the "loop hole" if it is one, that gives gun hero's a way to put a force user down.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that a lot of players will find it an unfair burden, simply because there doesn't seem to be a logical reason why the Jedi could deflect a blaster bolt, but cannot put their lightsaber in the way of a bullet (which would presumably vaporize the slug on contact). Especially when you have other means of achieving similar ends.

It is, admittedly more challenging for the GM to challenge a Jedi player. But you also have a resource of experienced GMs to pool for ideas.

For example, a shotgun-like scatter round mentioned above. Or, if a villain got REALLY inventive, they can put pure cortosis at the core of their round, deactivating the lightsaber on contact. The round itself won't be lethal, but it will be one heck of a shock. The second round in the chamber is also likely to hit.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylor wrote:

Why would everyone not walk around and mow down force users with automatic rifles? Why would a force user not carry an automatic rifle to best the Mr Darth as opposed to a lightsaber?


A) cause firearms can jam, something you can't get with blasters
B) firearm ammo can foul, and is (as you know with my PC) much harder to get/make, compared to the availaility of blaster power packs
C) firearm users are often shown scorn (like my character often is)
D) as firearms are Physical, they 99% of the time get the HIGHER rating for armor so people soak it more often

taylor wrote:

So I am seeking a balance between the gun heroes and force users, firearms, flamethrowers and gas attacks seemed to be nice solutions to give incentive for the force user to buy into their dodge skill and not default everything to a force based skill which covers a lot already.


Well, if someone sets off an EMP his LS is shut down just like a blaster is, but flamers, grenade launchers, missile weapons etc don't, and with a hunt going on in many people's campaign for force users, it might not make SENSE to pop out the lightsaber to deflect stuff..

taylor wrote:
Is it an unfair burden to the force users to expect they defend against firearms with dodge instead of an LSC parry? The issue results that I have a character, or a couple, realizing the "loop hole" if it is one, that gives gun hero's a way to put a force user down.


So LSC should be the 'ultimate defense' for any jedi then..
Isn't that making it an overpowered burden on everyone else?

Plus you might be conflaiting tha they can't PARRY the bullet back, where as they can at least use the LS to intercept it if they are coming in one at a time..
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

early on in my star wars gaming experience i proposed the idea of what kind of weapon could get past the light saber parry defense. the one that was agreed upon was a shotgun blast. the reason being that there were too much shot for the user to fully parry/defend against. from there we went and created a blaster shotgun. well less blaster and more energy cannon shotgun blast. my first gm's never let a force user defend against it the normal way and after awhile the characters reputation got around and users stopped trying the parry defense and started using the old school dodge and/or proper cover.

as i became gm much later on, i expanded it to say that vs jedi types the blast was only effective at certain ranges as the blast needed to spread out.

also, since it was in the prequels, a high volume of shots will overwhelm a jedi's abilities so theres that option too.
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Error
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this came up in my game, I'd allow them to block slugs (let's cut the crap and call them what they are: bullets), except they can't reflect them back on the firer—or deflect them at all, for that matter. I say this because a bullet would generally melt on impact with a lightsaber, scattering red-to-yellow-hot drops of molten metal all over the place. Can you imagine a Jedi parrying the shots from a machine gun? It'd be almost a miniature volcanic show, with each bullet splatting against the lightsaber and essentially becoming a little shower of flying lava and sparks. Gosh, that would look so dope. His/her clothes would be ruined afterward, but who cares?

This has given me a sweet idea for some of my fanfic.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Error, you're wrong in equating bullets and slugs.

To quote Wookieepedia:
A slugthrower was any firearm that fired solid projectiles enveloped in energy (known as slugs), as opposed to the energy bolts of a blaster. So a bowcaster could reasonably be considered a slugthrower.

To paraphrase Wikipedia:
A bullet is the often metal bit that gets kicked out of the barrel of a firearm at reasonably high speed. It is singularly lacking in an energy envelope.

To further quote Wookieepedia:
Slugthrowers were surprisingly useful against lightsabers, as when a slug made contact with a blade, it simply melted instead of being deflected like a blaster bolt.

Own note:
Do note the "simply melted". It wasn't vaporized. So if a molten metal spray hits you, or if it is in its nonmelted form, that's both nasty.
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Error
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Sorry, Error, you're wrong in equating bullets and slugs.

To quote Wookieepedia:
A slugthrower was any firearm that fired solid projectiles enveloped in energy (known as slugs), as opposed to the energy bolts of a blaster. So a bowcaster could reasonably be considered a slugthrower.

To paraphrase Wikipedia:
A bullet is the often metal bit that gets kicked out of the barrel of a firearm at reasonably high speed. It is singularly lacking in an energy envelope.

To further quote Wookieepedia:
Slugthrowers were surprisingly useful against lightsabers, as when a slug made contact with a blade, it simply melted instead of being deflected like a blaster bolt.

Own note:
Do note the "simply melted". It wasn't vaporized. So if a molten metal spray hits you, or if it is in its nonmelted form, that's both nasty.

Meh, I've been wrong before. I defer to the expertise of any and all folks with better information than I have Smile

But damn, I did not know that, not even in the old days... Well, that's cool. I don't think it would change the outcome much though. There's not enough information to make assumptions so I probably shouldn't either I guess.

Unless you have a GM who really wants it in their game in such-or-such a way. You know?

As for the melting thing, how big is a slug? In grams preferably. Unless it's a variable thing, in which case the question changes to 'What is a typical slug's mass?'. I kind of envisioned the same behavior if it were a bullet (^ above) plus sparks. I still think that'd be cool...watching a Jedi parry a bunch of slugs that he has to dance away from when they melt on his blade and he has to parry them all facing sideways...lol

Also germane to this discussion: What is the velocity of the slug? What is the diameter of a lightsaber's blade, in this case (should it differ ever)? How hot does a slug get when it's melted on a lightsaber? How far will the remains (probably glowing goo) travel before falling? We should calculate this and write the book on lightsabers vs. slugs.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
Can you imagine a Jedi parrying the shots from a machine gun? It'd be almost a miniature volcanic show, with each bullet splatting against the lightsaber and essentially becoming a little shower of flying lava and sparks. Gosh, that would look so dope. His/her clothes would be ruined afterward, but who cares?

This has given me a sweet idea for some of my fanfic.


To me though, cause of the sheer # of shots coming at them from a machine gun on full auto, i can't see their reaction skill making them fast enough to block all those bullets..

Quote:
Do note the "simply melted". It wasn't vaporized. So if a molten metal spray hits you, or if it is in its nonmelted form, that's both nasty.


Heck can you imagine how ouchy it would be to get a face full of molten metal!
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