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Firearms and force users
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also mentioned in a few novels that Jedi can deflect bullets of sorts.

From Dark Rendezvous
Quote:
Back on the main level, Whie leapt off the balcony railing with a loud cry, hoping to distract the assassin droid aiming a flechette launcher at Scout. The droid turned, the gun’s throaty chatter roared out, and a hail of razor-sharp tracers came keening through the air at Whie. He twisted, using the Force to deflect the stream of metal up into the ceiling. The station’s artificial gravity was only 0.69g, heightening the boy’s appearance of weightless grace. He came down spinning, his lightsaber a furious green blur. The four droids on the stairs scattered: two tumbled down below Whie; the other two dived up toward Scout. One grabbed for her ankle, meaning to crush it in its metal hand, only to have the whining blue blur of her lightsaber slash the hand off at its metal wrist.


Whie at this point was a Padawan, so this trick probably wouldn't have required much in the way of actual skill with the Force.

Similarly, Obi-Wan deflects projectiles in his fight with Durge in the Clone Wars cartoon pretty easily
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.. So jedi get even more uber.. And people wonder why i dislike the cartoons/comics so much.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi being able to do this and other, similar tricks is a natural extrapolation of abilities already present in the films and the EU. The trick is to make it possible, while setting the Difficulty high enough that the a PC will have to put a lot of work in before they can pull it off.

g, consider D&D for a moment. Do you object to the existence of the Wish spell because it makes high-level wizards/sorcerers so uber that it throws off game balance, or do you consider the spell properly balanced in the sense that only high level characters are capable of casting it? It's not that a Jedi can't do this; all the signs are there, and there are in-universe incidents where Jedi use TK in ways outside the scope of the WEG power of TK. Take, for instance, Joruus C'baoth in HttH, TK'ing a rock to intercept a blaster bolt. There is no basis for this in the WEG rules, and yet there it is. However, it took a very powerful Force user to do it.

My thinking is that, yes, a Force user should be able to use TK to parry bullets, but that the power to do so should be a CSA power, with high Difficulty levels for all three skills, and with multiple prerequisites. If done that way, a PC won't be able to do this right out of the gate, but will have to work their way up to it, much like how a spellcaster in D&D will have to work up to being able to cast a Wish spell.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont have a problem with a power that makes a Jedi able to deflect bullets. Its no different in my mind than blasters. Obi Wan deflected hundreds of them at a time in TCW mini series during his fight with Durge.
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
My thinking is that, yes, a Force user should be able to use TK to parry bullets, but that the power to do so should be a CSA power, with high Difficulty levels for all three skills, and with multiple prerequisites. If done that way, a PC won't be able to do this right out of the gate, but will have to work their way up to it, much like how a spellcaster in D&D will have to work up to being able to cast a Wish spell.


But if we use the D&D example as a starting point, it's not really equivalent to the wish spell. It's equivalent to a Protection from Normal Missiles spell. And that's in a setting where arrows are literally the only real ranged weapon option available, and doesn't include stuff like grenades, rockets, and a myriad of other explosive options.

We see from the novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous that a beginner-level apprentice was able to deflect flechettes into the air without any problem. I honestly don't think it should be much more of a difficult power to use than lightsaber combat, since it has most of the same basic elements and requirements. Similarly, Anakin blocked spears thrown by various Tusken Raiders in the Attack of the Clones novelisation. Jedi being especially vulnerable to bullets and requiring a high level of CSA doesn't really seem to make any sense given how they've been shown to telekinetically stop other attacks in the past.

High level CSA powers are stuff like Battle Meditation/Enhanced Coordination and Create Force Storms. Deflecting bullets isn't much different from stuff like Lesser Force Shield or Lightsaber Combat.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's always a tension between what it makes sense for Jedi to be able to do based on what we know of their abilities and what makes sense for Jedi to be able to do in terms of game balance. It makes sense that a Jedi should be able to deflect bullets with their telekinesis, but it also makes a kind of sense for bullets to be a kind of counter to Force users and their affinity for handling blaster fire. The idea that this aspect of Telekinesis has to be hard to do seems to me to come from a game balance perspective, which isn't a bad thought, but I'm not sure how well it fits with what we see (and are told) of Jedi abilities.

Telekinesis is also just a very powerful ability in almost any setting, so Jedi having TK is like an extreme case of this problem.

I guess you could rationalize making bullet-deflection hard by saying that a Force user can't just put up a wall of telekinetic force; they have to apply their power to a particular object, and since in this case the object(s) are extremely fast moving and tiny, that might be difficult to do. Of course that kind of falls down against their ability to parry equally fast moving blaster bolts.

In the WEG rules I'm not sure there's any real way to not have Force users be far more powerful than ordinary people, and my own feeling is that it isn't setting-appropriate anyway. You just (well, 'just') have to have players who understand that and are willing to operate under that parameter, and then depending on the specific setting of the game, the GM can provide disadvantages to going too overboard with Force use. (Easiest in the classic 'height of the Empire setting, I think)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scots Dragon wrote:
But if we use the D&D example as a starting point, it's not really equivalent to the wish spell. It's equivalent to a Protection from Normal Missiles spell. And that's in a setting where arrows are literally the only real ranged weapon option available, and doesn't include stuff like grenades, rockets, and a myriad of other explosive options.

And that's part of why I wasn't using D&D as a starting point, but as an example of making a powerful ability far out of the reach of starting PCs as a way to maintain game balance. I'm not advocating for a direct crossover.

Quote:
We see from the novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous that a beginner-level apprentice was able to deflect flechettes into the air without any problem.

By what basis was there no problem? What was the skill dice level of said apprentice? There are a lot of assumptions in this statement.

Quote:
Similarly, Anakin blocked spears thrown by various Tusken Raiders in the Attack of the Clones novelisation. Jedi being especially vulnerable to bullets and requiring a high level of CSA doesn't really seem to make any sense given how they've been shown to telekinetically stop other attacks in the past.

Any example citing Anakin is automatically suspect, as his level of Force sensitivity far outstrips that of any PC. Even then, there is quite a bit of velocity difference between a thrown spear and a bullet.

Quote:
High level CSA powers are stuff like Battle Meditation/Enhanced Coordination and Create Force Storms. Deflecting bullets isn't much different from stuff like Lesser Force Shield or Lightsaber Combat.

CSA is also the province of powers like Telekinetic Kill and Affect Mind, and have relatively high Difficulty levels even before MAPs are factored in. And since you cite Lightsaber Combat, I would note that being able to deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber requires both Control and Sense rolls, combined with the Lightsaber skill. Using TK simply replaces the Lightsaber with Telekinesis, which requires an Alter roll, therefore: Control, Sense and Alter.

As an aside, my thinking on Lesser Force Shield is that it is better folded into an expanded version of Absorb/Dissipate Energy, with the ability to absorb kinetic energy as well. But that's neither here nor there...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Jedi being able to do this and other, similar tricks is a natural extrapolation of abilities already present in the films and the EU. The trick is to make it possible, while setting the Difficulty high enough that the a PC will have to put a lot of work in before they can pull it off.


And that's the kicker, make it hard/high enough that a lot of work's needed. Making the diff easy (10) and moderate (15) means on ave 4d+1 i going to hit it both..

CRMcNeill wrote:

g, consider D&D for a moment. Do you object to the existence of the Wish spell because it makes high-level wizards/sorcerers so uber that it throws off game balance, or do you consider the spell properly balanced in the sense that only high level characters are capable of casting it?


Well, A its limited to those of 17th or higher level, AND those with a 18 int (since you need an 18 int to be able to cast 9th level magic regardless of your level being at the level or not). AND it ages you 5 years, which prompts a System shock roll or die cause of the unnatural aging.. So yes, i find it's balanced..

CRMcNeill wrote:
It's not that a Jedi can't do this; all the signs are there, and there are in-universe incidents where Jedi use TK in ways outside the scope of the WEG power of TK. Take, for instance, Joruus C'baoth in HttH, TK'ing a rock to intercept a blaster bolt. There is no basis for this in the WEG rules, and yet there it is. However, it took a very powerful Force user to do it.


But the way this (and other powers) seem to get presented, it seems that its NOT needing powerful (meaning 7d+ masters) to pull them off..
3d averages out to 10.5. So a starting force user (1d attribute +2d of starting skills) can ON AVERAGE routinely pull off an Easy result. Add another D+1 and now he's pulling a Moderate off routinely..
That doesn't seem like it "requires powerful force users to pull off"..

CRMcNeill wrote:
My thinking is that, yes, a Force user should be able to use TK to parry bullets, but that the power to do so should be a CSA power, with high Difficulty levels for all three skills, and with multiple prerequisites. If done that way, a PC won't be able to do this right out of the gate, but will have to work their way up to it, much like how a spellcaster in D&D will have to work up to being able to cast a Wish spell.


OR just a single TK roll, modified for speed rather than weight. BUT you need one TK roll per bullet you wish to deflect...

Scots Dragon wrote:

But if we use the D&D example as a starting point, it's not really equivalent to the wish spell. It's equivalent to a Protection from Normal Missiles spell. And that's in a setting where arrows are literally the only real ranged weapon option available, and doesn't include stuff like grenades, rockets, and a myriad of other explosive options.


And that's the thing. Already they can deflect blasters, use TK to grab and redirect missiles/grenades. Now add in flechettes and bullets. And you pretty much make them invincible to all ranged combat. TOp that off with they already are gods of melee damn near (especially once LS combat's up that is), and Jedi just become uber combat gods in essence..
There HAS to be some way to bring them down. Firearms to me should be one of those options. Otherwise its Pull the Frik out, and obliterate the 100m grid the Jedi's standing in with Heavy artillery!

Giant Tourtiere wrote:
There's always a tension between what it makes sense for Jedi to be able to do based on what we know of their abilities and what makes sense for Jedi to be able to do in terms of game balance. It makes sense that a Jedi should be able to deflect bullets with their telekinesis, but it also makes a kind of sense for bullets to be a kind of counter to Force users and their affinity for handling blaster fire. The idea that this aspect of Telekinesis has to be hard to do seems to me to come from a game balance perspective, which isn't a bad thought, but I'm not sure how well it fits with what we see (and are told) of Jedi abilities.


Hence a # of my comments in a lot of Jedi focused threads...
Taking stuff we see in cartoons/comics, to "make jedi more powerful' IS killing any sense of game balance.

Even IF the DM uses all the limiters he can, "Double CP if no master, NO masters surviving in a Rise of the empire setting, and "you damn well better follow the Jedi code/path or get DSPs, i've seen Plenty of Jedi pcs that after 100cp or so, start outstripping the others in combat, ALL cause of lightsaber combat (and other such skills).. Yea that jedi may be sucking hind tit in mechanical/technical and per skills, but why bother when he simply can use a mix of enhance attribute AND concentration to get +6D to any skill roll he needs...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh... game balance doesnt seem like its really an issue here if we are talking about adding this in to an otherwise vanilla RAW scenario: slugthrowers tend to lag 1D behind in damage compared to a blaster of equal size, AND the armor that PCs tend to wear provides an additional 1D (usually) against physical, making it a net +2D when rolling to soak. Jedi tend not to wear armor so they dont get this benefit.

Also, at low levels, the Jedi is still suffering from the attribute dice he had to give up in order to take those force skills, so he's lagging behind in both attributes and skills compared to other characters. By the time higher levels are achieved, a power like this would be just a novelty. Using plain telekinesis to preemptively yank all the blasters out of enemies' hands (because danger sense provides 1 round advanced notice) would be far easier than trying to pull off a high level CSA for each and every bullet.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Meh... game balance doesnt seem like its really an issue here if we are talking about adding this in to an otherwise vanilla RAW scenario: slugthrowers tend to lag 1D behind in damage compared to a blaster of equal size, AND the armor that PCs tend to wear provides an additional 1D (usually) against physical, making it a net +2D when rolling to soak. Jedi tend not to wear armor so they dont get this benefit.


True, normally firearms do lag in damage behind blasters. BUT you can get better amror, AP rounds, EX rounds and the like which gives you more damage capacity. ALSO you can Silence a slugthrower, so you can snipe easier. Can't do that with blasters!!![/quote]

Quote:

Also, at low levels, the Jedi is still suffering from the attribute dice he had to give up in order to take those force skills, so he's lagging behind in both attributes and skills compared to other characters.


True. A 18d build cha who put 1d in to each of his 3 force skills will have 3d less for attributes. BUT if he puts 2d of his starting 7d into each of those skills, he can use ENhance attribute AND concentration to bump up any skill he wants to potentially high levels..

Quote:
By the time higher levels are achieved, a power like this would be just a novelty. Using plain telekinesis to preemptively yank all the blasters out of enemies' hands (because danger sense provides 1 round advanced notice) would be far easier than trying to pull off a high level CSA for each and every bullet.


He'd need a HIGH level ALter to yank the guns out of 5+ opponent's hands..
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends how theinterprets the rules, I guess, but the point is thatthe alter rol wouldnt be sufering the maps from control and sense. In any case, same for same, the slugthrower is at a disadvantage vs blasters.

As for silencing... is that a houserule? We've used silencers on blasters in our games before, so...

As for damage, again, there are always means by which to make a blaster even more powerful (like having AP blaster ammo should the GM decide to allow this for either blasters or slugthrowers).

I think it comes down to two camps, more or less: those who think Jedi are too powerful, and those who dont. At our table, the Jedi code all by itself has always been enough to dissuade anyone but me from even being interested in playing one. How's that for balance?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone more familiar with d6 in general done some expansion on Firearms in Star Wars? I can see them being common on primitive planets... since they're common on this primitive planet.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Anyone more familiar with d6 in general done some expansion on Firearms in Star Wars? I can see them being common on primitive planets... since they're common on this primitive planet.


Common? Primitive? MY HOME THIS IS!!! Mr. Green Evil or Very Mad Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Anyone more familiar with d6 in general done some expansion on Firearms in Star Wars? I can see them being common on primitive planets... since they're common on this primitive planet.


Common? Primitive? MY HOME THIS IS!!! Mr. Green Evil or Very Mad Mr. Green


Note: I live in Texas. I stand by my statement. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Anyone more familiar with d6 in general done some expansion on Firearms in Star Wars? I can see them being common on primitive planets... since they're common on this primitive planet.


Common? Primitive? MY HOME THIS IS!!! Mr. Green Evil or Very Mad Mr. Green


Note: I live in Texas. I stand by my statement. Wink


I live on a rainy island off the coast of Europe and I think I've seen an actual working gun in person maybe once or twice in my entire life. The majority of the firearms I've seen were display models in the World War 2 section of a local museum.

When it comes to giving primitive planets weapons, though, you could use various pulse-wave weapons from the Tales of the Jedi book. They're kind of the prototype for blaster weapons, with the main difference being that they have shorter range and require reloading more often, though they do the same amount of damage overall. They're close enough in equivalence to blasters that you can parry them normally with a lightsaber.
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