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Handheld Shields
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Dustflier
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Handheld Shields Reply with quote

We've seen handheld energy shields in use in Star Wars before, by the gungans, as well as in the Clone Wars animated cartoons. How would you stat them? What skill(s) would any characters utilizing them roll?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would lean towards Melee Parry. They would provide an inherent bonus to Melee Parry actions (it is easier to block an attack with a foot of energy than the blade of a vibro-weapon), but also inflict a MAP for two objects in use in combat.

Small shields would be +1D parry, and a 1D cover bonus against ranged attacks.

Medium shields would be +1D+2 Parry, and a 2D cover bonus against ranged attacks

Large shields would be +2D+1 Parry, and a 3D cover bonus against ranged attacks.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meriik made this thread on physical shields back in 2015.. I could have sworn there were 2-3 other threads on it, but most all the shield threads i see when i do a search are related to ship shields..

As to my thoughts..
A) i would have the pc need to succeed in a melee parry roll to interpose the shield between himself and the attack to benefit from it.
B) the shield has a set damage value it can absorb. Anything bigger than that, gets through to hit the wielder.
C) Each time it absorbs that value, it lessens its protectiveness.. So say a shield rated for 4d, absorbs a 4d pistol fully. now its down to say 3d..
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Dustflier
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Meriik made this thread on physical shields back in 2015.. I could have sworn there were 2-3 other threads on it, but most all the shield threads i see when i do a search are related to ship shields..


Man, I searched for other threads, too. Somehow I missed that one.

MrNexx wrote:
I would lean towards Melee Parry. They would provide an inherent bonus to Melee Parry actions . . .


This is a graceful and simple way to handle it, though I was imagining it to take a more active role, thinking that such a shield can also be used to melee parry a ranged attack.

garhkal wrote:
As to my thoughts..
A) i would have the pc need to succeed in a melee parry roll to interpose the shield between himself and the attack to benefit from it.
B) the shield has a set damage value it can absorb. Anything bigger than that, gets through to hit the wielder.
C) Each time it absorbs that value, it lessens its protectiveness.. So say a shield rated for 4d, absorbs a 4d pistol fully. now its down to say 3d..


This is pretty similar to how I have been doing it - though they've not had enough time with it to discover the limits to how protective it can be. The shield rating is more effective than what I've used.

Would you consider a separate Shield skill, in the same way that Lightsaber is its own?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I would lean towards Melee Parry. They would provide an inherent bonus to Melee Parry actions (it is easier to block an attack with a foot of energy than the blade of a vibro-weapon), but also inflict a MAP for two objects in use in combat.

Small shields would be +1D parry, and a 1D cover bonus against ranged attacks.

Medium shields would be +1D+2 Parry, and a 2D cover bonus against ranged attacks

Large shields would be +2D+1 Parry, and a 3D cover bonus against ranged attacks.


I did exactly this for a D6 Fantasy game. It wound up being a real challenge for me to create balanced combat where I could threaten the guy with a shield without stabbing everyone else in the party to death. Once there is a shield in play, it raises the question why NOT have a shield?

Of course, in the history of warfare this was exactly the question on people's minds, and exactly why shields were so common before the high middle ages when armor was thorough enough to make them obsolete.
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Giant Tourtiere
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without Jedi powers I can't see anyone being able to *actively* parry ranged attacks with a shield. You sort of hold it up and hope things hit it instead of you, which I guess sounds like the Cover rules, which is a little complicated.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure how simple it would be, but subtracting the shield's cover rating from the attacker's roll seems like an okay way to do it. That way a skilled enough marksman can still bypass the shield but it makes the character harder to hit. Couple that with a "hardness" or "soak" rating to see how heavy a shot needs to hit the shield to penetrate it.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
I would lean towards Melee Parry. They would provide an inherent bonus to Melee Parry actions (it is easier to block an attack with a foot of energy than the blade of a vibro-weapon), but also inflict a MAP for two objects in use in combat.

Small shields would be +1D parry, and a 1D cover bonus against ranged attacks.

Medium shields would be +1D+2 Parry, and a 2D cover bonus against ranged attacks

Large shields would be +2D+1 Parry, and a 3D cover bonus against ranged attacks.


I did exactly this for a D6 Fantasy game. It wound up being a real challenge for me to create balanced combat where I could threaten the guy with a shield without stabbing everyone else in the party to death. Once there is a shield in play, it raises the question why NOT have a shield?

Of course, in the history of warfare this was exactly the question on people's minds, and exactly why shields were so common before the high middle ages when armor was thorough enough to make them obsolete.


It gets a little better when you consider the MAP... so, while a small shield Adds +1D to Parry, you also have a -1D because you're coordinating the shield and the sword... so a small shield's main benefit (without specialization) is that you have a cover bonus against ranged attacks. Larger shields make it more difficult, but that's when you have people start trying other tactics, like "I try to break his shield".
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:


It gets a little better when you consider the MAP... so, while a small shield Adds +1D to Parry, you also have a -1D because you're coordinating the shield and the sword... so a small shield's main benefit (without specialization) is that you have a cover bonus against ranged attacks. Larger shields make it more difficult, but that's when you have people start trying other tactics, like "I try to break his shield".


Oh, I still used MAPs. It still made for difficult balance. Now, if you're assuming the shield can only sustain so much damage, then it may help, but I've not playtested using a shield with the cover rules.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
MrNexx wrote:


It gets a little better when you consider the MAP... so, while a small shield Adds +1D to Parry, you also have a -1D because you're coordinating the shield and the sword... so a small shield's main benefit (without specialization) is that you have a cover bonus against ranged attacks. Larger shields make it more difficult, but that's when you have people start trying other tactics, like "I try to break his shield".


Oh, I still used MAPs. It still made for difficult balance. Now, if you're assuming the shield can only sustain so much damage, then it may help, but I've not playtested using a shield with the cover rules.


I tend to run it fairly traditionally... weapons, armor, and shields are invulnerable in normal use, and it's only when someone is trying to break them (or similar extreme circumstances) that they get damaged... in D6, that would mean giving the shield a strength roll whenever it specifically attacked, per page 94 of R&E.
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Giant Tourtiere
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
MrNexx wrote:


It gets a little better when you consider the MAP... so, while a small shield Adds +1D to Parry, you also have a -1D because you're coordinating the shield and the sword... so a small shield's main benefit (without specialization) is that you have a cover bonus against ranged attacks. Larger shields make it more difficult, but that's when you have people start trying other tactics, like "I try to break his shield".


Oh, I still used MAPs. It still made for difficult balance. Now, if you're assuming the shield can only sustain so much damage, then it may help, but I've not playtested using a shield with the cover rules.


I haven't either, but it seems like the first thing to try for modelling shields vs. ranged. The STR code for cover would in this case be whether the shield soaks the damage or if the shot punches through and still hits what is behind it. Maybe with a reduced damage code, depending on what it is. Whether that also destroys/damages the shield in some meaningful way (i.e., has a game effect) I'm not sure. Might make shields too flimsy. Maybe the shield itself only gets damaged if someone specifically targets it, as suggested above.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustflier wrote:

Man, I searched for other threads, too. Somehow I missed that one.


Perhaps you rolled a 1 on the wild die for your search skill Razz

Dustflier wrote:
Would you consider a separate Shield skill, in the same way that Lightsaber is its own?


I could see it as a separate skill, Or under melee parry.

Cheshire wrote:
I did exactly this for a D6 Fantasy game. It wound up being a real challenge for me to create balanced combat where I could threaten the guy with a shield without stabbing everyone else in the party to death. Once there is a shield in play, it raises the question why NOT have a shield?


Perhaps using a shield is a lot more tiring (though since there are no rules for fatigue etc, you would also need to come up with that), and has a min str requirement. OR use of a shield makes it harder to do some other skills, like dodge, running, accrobatics, and the like. Or give possible penalties to vision checks..?

MrNexx wrote:
I tend to run it fairly traditionally... weapons, armor, and shields are invulnerable in normal use,


Actually that is going against 'traditional rules'.. Most gear has a body rating of a mere 2d. And there already exists rules for armor damage in the RAW..
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kalamaro
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think you must create skill "energie shields" skill to try block blaster bolt? Twisted Evil
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

MrNexx wrote:
I tend to run it fairly traditionally... weapons, armor, and shields are invulnerable in normal use,


Actually that is going against 'traditional rules'.. Most gear has a body rating of a mere 2d. And there already exists rules for armor damage in the RAW..


Yes, but you don't have to check for item damage every time you swing a vibroblade or get hit in the armor with a blaster bolt. While there are rules in place to break things... rules I cited with a page reference... normal use of weapons and armor doesn't require a breakage check.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Actually that is going against 'traditional rules'.. Most gear has a body rating of a mere 2d. And there already exists rules for armor damage in the RAW..


Yes, but you don't have to check for item damage every time you swing a vibroblade or get hit in the armor with a blaster bolt. While there are rules in place to break things... rules I cited with a page reference... normal use of weapons and armor doesn't require a breakage check.

I've been considering a rule that covers this. In WH40K, they used to have a separate category for Improvised Weapons, random objects that could simply be picked up and used in a fight, even if they weren't designed for it. What I'm thinking is saying that Improvised Melee Weapons would have to roll to soak damage every time they are used as a weapon. True Melee weapons (i.e. weapons designed and built for combat purposes) would only roll for damage in the event of a Wild Dice failure).

As far as Shields, I think the Cover and Protection rules work quite nicely here. IMO, game stats for shields need:
    A Body Rating in Dice (nothing too high, though; per the WEG rules, a blast door has a 6D rating)

    A weight rating, based on the shield's size, where characters must make a free Strength roll when using a shield to parry.

    A Cover Rating, based on size, so a Small Shield would offer 1/4 Cover, whereas a Tower Shield would offer Full Cover. The Cover bonuses from the RAW would then be used as bonuses to parry Melee attacks and increase the Difficulty of ranged attacks.

    A Damage Rating: Shield bashing is a legit attack; the Ancient Greek shield was brutal if it was swung edge-on. Oddly enough, the largest Shields would have been too cumbersome to use as an effective weapon.

Then you can start adding high-tech options; power shields, reinforced by energy to increase the Body rating without the attendant increase in weight; suspensor pods or servo arms to help support the weight of larger shields, etc.
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