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Handheld Shields
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are crouching down though, shouldn't they be suffering penalties to dodge, move and the like?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were to go whole-hog on this, I'd steal from Hackmaster, which has great shield rules.

In Hackmaster, someone defending without a shield usually rolled d20p-4, whereas someone defending with a shield rolls d20p+shield bonuses, usually resulting in them have about a +10 to defense. However, defending with a shield meant that more attacks hit you... they just did less damage, what with reduction for the shield and armor (many weapons do less damage against a shield; one of the big advantages of a battle axe over a sword is that it does more damage against a shield). The cover save for a shield is something I got from Hackmaster, and they have a "take cover" mechanic to allow you to improve the cover save.

Adapting this to d6?

Shields convey a +1d (or more, for slightly larger shields) to Melee Parry; you can, of course, specialize your Melee Parry in Shields. Successful melee parries with shields do damage to the shield, which might bleed through to the player (per cover rules on p. 94 of R&E), unless the defense succeeds by 10 or more. (Effectively, this means you can declare a single attack and a single parry if you're using a shield, and be -1D on the attack and -0D on the parry).
When using a shield against ranged attacks, the shield gives the character a no-action Dodge at its cover rating (1D for small, 2D for medium, 4D for large), or adds its cover rating to dodge or full dodge attempts. "Taking Cover" behind your shield is a no-roll action which increases the value by 1, but, as an action, reduces your other actions by 1D. In any case, success by less than 10 will do damage to the shield, which might bleed through to the player.

Most modern shields will resist damage at 4D ("reinforced door"), while slightly inferior shields will resist at 3D ("standard metal door"). Some really expensive shields might include things like cortosis or phrik, which might increase their defense against certain types of damage.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer a system where the words used mean what they say. Specifically, "Dodge" should mean an effort is made to avoid an attack entirely, whereas "Parry" should refer to some effort made to block or deflect the attack with another object. There is, IMO, too much wink-and-nod justification in the RAW already. Using a shield to parry an attack should focus on Melee Parry, and leave Dodge out of it entirely
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If they are crouching down though, shouldn't they be suffering penalties to dodge, move and the like?

Weren't you the one saying a Character shouldn't be allowed to both Dodge and Parry at the same time?
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In D6, I don’t see much difference between Dodge and Melee Parry. Now in Hero System, if you successfully block (parry) a blow, you get the initiative against that opponent regardless of DEX. ( They use as default a Dex based initiative). And for simplicity, I roll Brawling and Melee into one. Of course if you to specialize in just melee, you can.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
If they are crouching down though, shouldn't they be suffering penalties to dodge, move and the like?

Weren't you the one saying a Character shouldn't be allowed to both Dodge and Parry at the same time?


According to my post back on page one, i said using a shield MIGHt make it harder to do other skills, like dodge..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
If they are crouching down though, shouldn't they be suffering penalties to dodge, move and the like?

Weren't you the one saying a Character shouldn't be allowed to both Dodge and Parry at the same time?


According to my post back on page one, i said using a shield MIGHt make it harder to do other skills, like dodge..

I distinctly recall a different topic entirely (one about Lightsaber Parry, IIRC) where you opined that a character parrying with a Lightsaber should not be allowed to also attempt to Dodge the attack as well.

IMO, simply carrying a shield (depending on its size) would certainly be worth some degree of encumbrance. I just didn't feel like getting into that degree of detail on that particular post.

It's also noteworthy that simply having a shield of sufficient size will provide at least some protection just by carrying it, but that protection can be increased by how the character wields it.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I prefer a system where the words used mean what they say. Specifically, "Dodge" should mean an effort is made to avoid an attack entirely, whereas "Parry" should refer to some effort made to block or deflect the attack with another object. There is, IMO, too much wink-and-nod justification in the RAW already. Using a shield to parry an attack should focus on Melee Parry, and leave Dodge out of it entirely


Dodge, in this case, is more term of art. BTB, Dodge already includes taking cover behind objects, and cover adds to the difficulty of hitting someone... while you can reword it as "+XD to the difficulty to hit", the mathematics remain the same.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I distinctly recall a different topic entirely (one about Lightsaber Parry, IIRC) where you opined that a character parrying with a Lightsaber should not be allowed to also attempt to Dodge the attack as well.


That's a different situation. If one's parrying bolts via LS combat, and FAILS to parry them, then they shouldn't get a dodge to get out of their way.. ITS too late..
However, if someone's using a shield to melee parry, and is taking cover behind it, they could still try a dodge vs other attacks (ranged), but at a penalty, cause of the shield and taking a knee...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like a shield should just provide a cover bonus. The penalty for carrying a shield is built into the very act of carrying it:

Can't use a blaster rifle, can't use a vibro-ax, force pike, or other two-handed weapon, etc.

+1D (or whatever) to dodge and/or melee parry.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I feel like a shield should just provide a cover bonus. The penalty for carrying a shield is built into the very act of carrying it:

Can't use a blaster rifle, can't use a vibro-ax, force pike, or other two-handed weapon, etc.

+1D (or whatever) to dodge and/or melee parry.


Thing is, there's only one weapon i see in the complete weapons guide, which even LISTS it explicitly as being two handed.. The Jengarrdin double bladed vibro-ax.. And even that only gives a penalty to use if you use it one handed.. Few if any other weapons, specify that they must be used two handed.. or take X penalty..

So unless you go through the book and modify a # of weapons to specify that, you can't really say there is a built in penalty..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see a small shield allowing a character to both parry and dodge at the same time, but the sheer size of some of the larger shields should preclude doing anything but just standing and taking the hit. Otherwise, lacking any other sort of advantage, a character will likely choose a large shield every time.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Nice concept Kytross. My question though is what’s the difference between Tay and Particle weapons? Do you have an example?


Ray shields block energy. Particle shields block physical. The exhaust port on the Death Star was only ray shielded, so it was possible to bypass that with a physical object, like a torpedo.

Page 126 of 2E R&E covers the difference between the two in space combat.

CRMcNeill, I felt that making the shield both ray and particle could be over powering. It needs some play testing.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:
I feel like a shield should just provide a cover bonus. The penalty for carrying a shield is built into the very act of carrying it:

Can't use a blaster rifle, can't use a vibro-ax, force pike, or other two-handed weapon, etc.

+1D (or whatever) to dodge and/or melee parry.


Thing is, there's only one weapon i see in the complete weapons guide, which even LISTS it explicitly as being two handed.. The Jengarrdin double bladed vibro-ax.. And even that only gives a penalty to use if you use it one handed.. Few if any other weapons, specify that they must be used two handed.. or take X penalty..

So unless you go through the book and modify a # of weapons to specify that, you can't really say there is a built in penalty..


If thats how the group wamts to play, I'd just throw a bunch of NPCs at them dual wielding E-WHBs... or beter yet, just dual wield a pair of turbo lasers that they salvaged off of a wrecked space hulk and made wrist adaptors for them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Ray shields block energy. Particle shields block physical. The exhaust port on the Death Star was only ray shielded, so it was possible to bypass that with a physical object, like a torpedo.

Page 126 of 2E R&E covers the difference between the two in space combat.

The problem is that WEG immediately turned around and contradicted themselves by making particle shields account fro 2D of a ship's Hull rating, which is used against both physical and energy attacks. WEG can't even be internally consistent. It never made sense to me that deflector shields - a ship's first line of defense in combat - would be ineffective against three of the four kinds of attacks that can be used against ships in the RAW (ion cannon, missiles/torps and tractor beams).

I long ago redesigned Ray and Particle Shielding into Deflector Shields and Navigation Shields, both of which are effective against all four types of attacks. It makes things much less confusing.
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