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How do you use astromech's and their limited jumps feature
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worfbacca
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 8:53 am    Post subject: How do you use astromech's and their limited jumps feature Reply with quote

How do you use the limited jumps feature of an astromech or B-wing or A-wing. When the core book says they are limited to two or 10 jumps - what does that mean exactly? Can they only jump to systems which they have coordinates for stored in their databanks? Can they compute new coordinates on demand or do they have to do that with a Nav computer?
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We always played this meant you could pre-program a number of jumps from one location to another. Our course, you had to get to the jump point that was programmed before making the jump. This helps explain how the Rebel fighters could execute hit and run raids so quickly and effectively.

Alternately, Han didn't have the time to get the calculation for the jump from Tatooine to Alderaan because they were being pursued the entire time - either by stormtroopers or star destroyers.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you use astromech's and their limited jumps featu Reply with quote

worfbacca wrote:
How do you use the limited jumps feature of an astromech or B-wing or A-wing. When the core book says they are limited to two or 10 jumps - what does that mean exactly? Can they only jump to systems which they have coordinates for stored in their databanks? Can they compute new coordinates on demand or do they have to do that with a Nav computer?


The way I see it, is that they pre-plan 2 (or 10) jumps, so "lets get into system, hit the empire, then retreat to a safe way point. Here's hoping our support ship will be there on stand by, to transmit to us, NEW jump coordinates for our 2nd way point and final home transit"..

So the A/B-wings would have two 'uses' of pre-calculated jump coordinates, BUT THEY Would also have to worry about getting to the correct Exit point.. So if the empire say is bottlenecking their escape they may not get to Use those latter coordinates.
Where as the Y/X-wings with their 10 jump R2s, could potentially have 3-4 safe exit vectors from a system they jump into, to do a hit and run attack, and then 2-3 more 'Mid-way stop points', so as to throw off persuers..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the preprogrammed jumps work both ways, so A-to-B and B-to-A still only counts as one saved jump. But like Bidlo and garhkal, each end of each jump has a specific entry/exit point in space. I'm ok with it being a fairly big area though, bigger than an Imperial star destroyer, so it would take something a good amount bigger or an interdiction field to all-out block an hyperspace entry point. So it would make sense that some of the preprogrammed jumps involve one or both of the same systems as other saved jumps, but have different entry/exit points so starfighters on missions have different options for escape from a system.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this may not be a helpful answer, but I’m going to throw out the existing Navcomputer types entirely and replace them with a D based system that stacks with the crew’s Astrogation skill. Individual routes will have a Difficulty based on their Duration and how frequently traveled they are, then individual ships will get either a bonus or penalty to Astrogation when rolling to calculate the jump. An A-Wing or B-Wing would have a -2D or -3D rating, so their pilot would only be able to roll 2D on Astrogation, thus leaving out all but the shortest courses.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I have the preprogrammed jumps work both ways, so A-to-B and B-to-A still only counts as one saved jump..


I am not sure that astrogation goes both ways like that..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
I have the preprogrammed jumps work both ways, so A-to-B and B-to-A still only counts as one saved jump..

I am not sure that astrogation goes both ways like that..

I'm not recalling anything in 2eR&E RAW that specifies each saved "jump" in an astromech droid is only one-way. If there is somewhere that comes out and says that, I'd be somewhat interested in seeing it. From what I recall, the term "jump" is used ambiguously, leaving it open for interpretation. However, A-wings and B-wings have built-in navicomputers more limited than an astromech droid's memory: "2 jumps". If that really means only there and back again, then that less room for alternate escape routes.

However the 1e core, from which this game arose, is a little less ambiguous. In rules fluff (not just stats or stat explanations), it says that an X-wing's astromech can save "routes". That's the path the ship takes and more indicative of it being either direction.

Regardless of your interpretation of RAW, each saved route work both ways in my SWU because I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't. The A and B coordinates in realspace are the same regardless of which direction the journey is. The general path is the same regardless of which direction the ship is going along that path. Any obstructions to avoid would equally be obstructions in either direction.

But you should have it work however you want in your game.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, this may not be a helpful answer, but I’m going to throw out the existing Navcomputer types entirely and replace them with a D based system that stacks with the crew’s Astrogation skill. Individual routes will have a Difficulty based on their Duration and how frequently traveled they are, then individual ships will get either a bonus or penalty to Astrogation when rolling to calculate the jump. An A-Wing or B-Wing would have a -2D or -3D rating, so their pilot would only be able to roll 2D on Astrogation, thus leaving out all but the shortest courses.

Seems simple. Looking forward to what you come up with.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Regardless of your interpretation of RAW, each saved route work both ways in my SWU because I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't. The A and B coordinates in realspace are the same regardless of which direction the journey is. The general path is the same regardless of which direction the ship is going along that path. Any obstructions to avoid would equally be obstructions in either direction.

But you should have it work however you want in your game.


I am not saying that based on anything RAW or from books, but what i've seen other dms do in the past.. only iirc seen TWO dms, out of dozens i've played under, who had it like you do, where "a 'planned jump coordinate' goes BOTH there and back".. The vast majority did it where 'it gets you THERE, you need to re-plot to get back'. Mostly because you wouldn't know going there, WHERE you are entering hyperspace to come back, at.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
I have the preprogrammed jumps work both ways, so A-to-B and B-to-A still only counts as one saved jump

I am not sure that astrogation goes both ways like that..

I am not saying that based on anything RAW or from books, but what i've seen other dms do in the past.. only iirc seen TWO dms, out of dozens i've played under, who had it like you do, where "a 'planned jump coordinate' goes BOTH there and back".. The vast majority did it where 'it gets you THERE, you need to re-plot to get back'. Mostly because you wouldn't know going there, WHERE you are entering hyperspace to come back, at.

I must have misinterpreted your comment. So you were just saying you aren't sure how you want to handle it? If so then it seems like you are basing your opinion on consensus (the way most GMs handle it). You're free to do that. Add me as a GM you know who has preprogrammed routes work both directions, even though we are still in the minority of GMs in your experience.

I was aware others have a stricter definition for "preprogrammed jumps" which is why I worded my comment the way I did. GMs can do it how they want, but I just don't see any logic for why preprogrammed jumps would only work one direction, and that makes it too harsh for A-wings and B-wings. Here I am thinking that even with my definition, only two preprogrammed jumps is still too limited. Since they don't have an astromech they shouldn't have full capability of one, but maybe half: five preprogrammed jumps.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is similar to others.

Short version:

I think of it this way - the jump is like a pre-plotted route.
It was calculated in a fully updated nav computer, and it created the trip specific route.
Then that was loaded into a droid, which can only hold so many.

Longer Version:
I think of a full on nav computer as like "google-galaxy" (google maps - star wars style). It has data on tons of stuff, but needs regular updates.
You can tell it a point a, and a point b, and a speed, and it will figure out the route.
Generating this route takes a lot of work - (from min to hours - depending upon your game flavor....).

Once the route is done - a very specific point a to a very specific point b, at a very specific time and speed - you can copy it to your droid.

But once in the droid - it does not have the power of the nav computer, nor all the data (like if your phone lost connection and could not reach google maps) and you could not make a different route.

Finally - I would say that full blown nav computers are very expensive and have other requirements - which is why they are not in smaller ships or droids. But that is just my own in-universe justification.

use what ever works for your game.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always looked at Limited to X jumps is a Pre Programmed Jump Computer that must be Programmed before use.

it works as a nav computer only between pre programmed hyperlanes etc.

Where as a Normal NAV computer being more advanced and having already a library of listed and known jump points, and one that can constantly or as needed programmed from cockpit etc.

However I do consider a Coruscant to Aldreaan to Coruscant as three programmed Jumps with the limited jump computer.

this limits operations in a to me balanced way witha "short range" craft
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I always looked at Limited to X jumps is a Pre Programmed Jump Computer that must be Programmed before use.

it works as a nav computer only between pre programmed hyperlanes etc.

Where as a Normal NAV computer being more advanced and having already a library of listed and known jump points, and one that can constantly or as needed programmed from cockpit etc.

However I do consider a Coruscant to Aldreaan to Coruscant as three programmed Jumps with the limited jump computer.

this limits operations in a to me balanced way witha "short range" craft


Hence to me, A to B, is one jump, B back to A is a separate jump.
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Phalanks Balas
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2023 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you use astromech's and their limited jumps featu Reply with quote

worfbacca wrote:
How do you use the limited jumps feature of an astromech or B-wing or A-wing. When the core book says they are limited to two or 10 jumps - what does that mean exactly? Can they only jump to systems which they have coordinates for stored in their databanks? Can they compute new coordinates on demand or do they have to do that with a Nav computer?


Hi fellows,
I see two subjects in you question.
My point of view :
I consider the limited of number of routes of a navcomputer can store and the limited number of astro-coordinate that an astromech can store.
- navcomputer can't make astrogation roll. It stores only precalculated data of route to go from A to B.
- astromech can make astrogation roll and so can calculate routes between two sets of coordinate making the travel in both directions possible.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2023 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't that backwards. Nav coms ARE the ones making astrogation computations. Astromechs are the ones who store pre-plotted jumps.
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