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Problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill?
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worfbacca
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:05 am    Post subject: Problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill? Reply with quote

Anyone else have problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill in some fan made sourcebooks .. 14-20D. This is because of how the lightsaber combat force power favors force users so when we get someone in the movies who kills Jedi it translates to the RPG system as a crazy high value.. maybe this means the lightsaber combat power has quirks that need to be resolved.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've thought it was a problem for a long time (Lightsaber Combat) and we long ago eliminated it from our game (along with Combat Sense), but then I also made some changes to the ways lightsabers work, too.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bigger issue with fan-mad stats for General Grievous is not just his outrageous lightsaber skill, it is his complete lack of force skills. Right in the movie, at the outset of the confrontation with Obi Wan he announces that Dooku has trained him in the Jedi arts. Therefore, Grievous should at the very least have the two skills necessary for the Lightsaber combat, and the Lightsaber Combat power. Now judging by the battle, these would not be very high as Obi-Wan very quickly deprives him of several hands and sabers.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe trained in the arts, meant IN USE OF lightsabers? Not actual force powers, since he was practically ALL Droid by then.. So therefore couldn't Access the force?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Maybe trained in the arts, meant IN USE OF lightsabers? Not actual force powers, since he was practically ALL Droid by then.. So therefore couldn't Access the force?

He was a cyborg, and therefore is not banned from force use.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the reasoning behind the extrme skill, I may not agree with the numbers though.

But what are we talking about here, a more or less RAW or a more balanced Fan Write up?

I have seen a lot of fan based suppliments, that I am sure a lot of gaming groups use, like the advenutre journals, and more and in some we have the force dice system and lightsaber combat forms, and given the requitemnt of these I can see high ranges.

However no matter the skill he will not be aboe to deal more than 5D pr hit.
Any jedi can add to this with powers.

Now what I would rate grievous skill as, actually high, in the 10D+ range but not as high as 13D.....however he does have what is it, 4 at once, and I would regardless of his four arms actually give him a -1D to actually hit with them but a +2D to most blocks

so I would give him 10-12D and +2D to block and -1D to attack, due to the 4 whiling sabers and not the precises actual combat strikes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill? Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
garhkal wrote:
KageRyu wrote:
The bigger issue with fan-mad stats for General Grievous is not just his outrageous lightsaber skill, it is his complete lack of force skills. Right in the movie, at the outset of the confrontation with Obi Wan he announces that Dooku has trained him in the Jedi arts. Therefore, Grievous should at the very least have the two skills necessary for the Lightsaber combat, and the Lightsaber Combat power. Now judging by the battle, these would not be very high as Obi-Wan very quickly deprives him of several hands and sabers.

Maybe trained in the arts, meant IN USE OF lightsabers? Not actual force powers, since he was practically ALL Droid by then.. So therefore couldn't Access the force?

He was a cyborg, and therefore is not banned from force use.

I'm with you, but official lore in both canons indicates Grievous was not Force-sensitive and his "Jedi arts" training was melee using lightsabers. However, both canons are stupid because they also indicate Grievous was suffering from Petunia Dursley Syndrome so much that he willfully chose to become a mostly-artificial cyborg to 'level the playing field' against Jedi. (Well, TCW established that and it officially overrode the EU's prior 'accident origin' before TCW was later also canonized by Disney.)

Ultimately, Grievous' exact status as a Force-user wasn't that important for Lucas to make explicit based on his singular role in the final film because he wasn't shown to overtly be using Force powers, but it is worth mentioning that an early concept for Grievous was that he was actually cyborg-Maul.

Having once been a fully organic badass warrior, I can easily see cyborg-Grievous being a superior threat than a pure super-droid would be, but I personally do not see how he could be so über and kill so many Jedi if he wasn't to some degree Force-sensitive. He wasn't Anakin Skywalker to begin with, and his Force ability was much reduced in cyborg form, but in my SWU cyborg-Grievous was somewhat Force-sensitive. He was also very strong-willed had a lot of training in resisting Force powers, so I interpret Obi-Wan's Force push to the ceiling to be a sort of 'Force Point' kind of effort that couldn't just be continually repeated. In my SWU, Grievous became a cyborg as a result of injuries he suffered in an accident that occurred while he was fighting Republic forces in a droid factory.

worfbacca wrote:
Anyone else have problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill in some fan made sourcebooks .. 14-20D. This is because of how the lightsaber combat force power favors force users so when we get someone in the movies who kills Jedi it translates to the RPG system as a crazy high value.. maybe this means the lightsaber combat power has quirks that need to be resolved.

The Lightsaber Combat force power may have quirks that need resolved, but I wouldn't use fanbook stats as a premise of that. If you have a problem with how some other GM statted him, change the stats to your liking. The other thing is, his stats hardly matter if he isn't going to be an NPC in your game. Game stats are meaningless to scripted narratives, the outcome of which do not involve a single die being rolled.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Ultimately, Grievous' exact status as a Force-user wasn't that important for Lucas to make explicit based on his singular role in the final film because he wasn't shown to overtly be using Force powers, but it is worth mentioning that an early concept for Grievous was that he was actually cyborg-Maul.

Yes, and to me this was such a shame as I found him to be the best villain from the PT and one of only a handful of good things (IMHO) to come out of the PT. While I have watched clone wars, I must have missed the references to him not being at all force using or only having been trained in Lightsabers. Even so, if I were to stat him with Force Abilities it would be the two skills for Lightsaber Combat, and likely only that power- also as I said, likely at a low level (just enough to use really).
I have never liked any of the Fan Stats I have seen for Grievous personally. If I ever were to try to make my own fan stats for something official, it would likely be Grievous, but I see a number of problems that would need to be overcome.
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DB 2.0
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you make him "Quad-Dexterous" he can do four actions at their full dice code before taking a multi action dice reduction, and you can go less hog wild on Lightsaber skill and Lightsaber Advanced skills.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB 2.0 wrote:
If you make him "Quad-Dexterous" he can do four actions at their full dice code before taking a multi action dice reduction, and you can go less hog wild on Lightsaber skill and Lightsaber Advanced skills.

Actually, based on existing D6, no he couldn't. He would still suffer Maps for every action after the first, just as an ambidextrous character suffers maps if shooting once with each hand.

In other D6 sources where I have seen rules for multi-limbs, the preferred handling was to provide a die code bonus for having an advantage. I would base the bonus on the combined actions chart which, with if quad-dextrous, would yield a +2D Skill Bonus.

Now, the whole spinning rapidly like a saw...definitely a die code bonus, chance for multi-hits, but how to approach it... This alone is a can of worms, and there really is nothing in D6 like it I am familiar with to use as precedent... maybe basing it off of Multi-Tap rules, giving the motors a Spin Die Code... I don't know... Certainly getting past a spinning wall of lightsabers is MUCH harder than blocking one or even two wielded normally.

Perhaps rules for some of his cybernetics could add bonus, but this is among the problems that I feel I would need to think on to create a fair and reasonable write up that poses a threat to Jedi without just being a power trip.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

The Lightsaber Combat force power may have quirks that need resolved, but I wouldn't use fanbook stats as a premise of that. If you have a problem with how some other GM statted him, change the stats to your liking. The other thing is, his stats hardly matter if he isn't going to be an NPC in your game. Game stats are meaningless to scripted narratives, the outcome of which do not involve a single die being rolled.


This - we have to be very careful attempting to map cinematic events - driven by plot, coolness and spectacle - into the sometimes quirky mechanics of our 30 year old game.

Then throw in the incredibly wide ranging quality of stats in the various fan sources over the years - and we can easily get caught into a cycle of interpretations - that end up in odd places.

Back to the general
One thing that is clear, in both lucas' depiction and our rules - is that force users do indeed have limits - and can be overcome - whether from massed fire (getting past their deflecting ability) or net melee results (grevious, or jedi vs. jedi etc.).

I like many others have made changes to the lightsaber related melee skills and force power, and tweaks to combat overall (multiple weapons). Some inspired from here and other sources (d6 space, etc.) - I would then combine that with some cybernetics enhancement bonuses and specialization to come up with a very dangerous foe.

Here are a few very simple things, which I think can help model this plot driven character.

Objects in a second hand:
Offense - Having more than one weapon allows a character to attack twice in the same action step, but all map's still apply (this is from d6 space I think - I could see som gm's adding a dex requirement).
Defense - holding something in the off hand (a shield, a mug, a weapon) can give the character a cover bonus based on the size of that object, or some GM's might give it a parry bonus (like a riot shield, etc.).

Some gm's add in an off hand penalty if using the offhand object offensively.

Then for the cyborg give a high dex with a net bonus of 6D dex(add in whatever pseudo-tech names of parts - like a 'synaptic coordination and control program - so he does not have an off hand penalty etc. - creative GM can justify anything).

then a skill bonus of 6-8d is not unreasonable.
Throw in some acrobatic tricks, good intimidation score (maybe a bonus from his armor).

When I started getting back into d6 recently, one feedback I got was a common modification of the Lightsaber combat skill to NOT have it add to damage - doing this also helps even things up a bit.

So back to interpreting movies into mechanics
Back to it - is anyone's intrpreetation of grevious wrong?
Not for their game. Sure - it might be challenging to fit in some of them in the context of the rules - and yes, I am sure that some might be more ---relatively realistic - but in the end - we always get a ton of differing views - which might all be right - from a certain point of view...

be well my friends, and may the dice be with you.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have to look at several factors, first Griveous was meant to be a "boss" and while being very skilled, he is not force sensitive, he can not "do" stuff with his lightsabers other than strike and swirl.

One issue is the numbers, the extrmely high dice in the skills, and to this I would say that most of the write ups we have that are fan based (though mostly well within RAW and balanced enough) we have the issue of how difficult things are, and the difficulty tables in the books.

These are meant for players more so than NPCs and as such they are inflated..

What I mean is that most NPCs or rather the common folk of the galaxy live their lives fully and work in jobs where a palyer would normally have to roll against difficuties much higher than what a common mook will be able to roll, yet they actually do succeed, they manage to drie their taxi, to avoid the crash, they can repair it somewhat, and such.....they even frequently thoughout life manage quite complex and difficult taks with a soemwhat level of ease...


so how hard is it to go full speed on the swoo and make that 90 degree turn?
I would say just as hard or easy as for the non player common unstatted mook commoner thar does this many times thtough their life.

the rolls for agriculture to see if you mamage you harvest, as a player, the numbers rolled so much higher than any commoner out there....yet they manage.

so I belive much of the Dice numbers can easily be lowered on just about every NPC write up for the above reasons.


If we look to templates for guidance we see a fully tranied and qualified, but freshly graduated military fighter pilot (without adding extra skill points to the piloting skills) is at 4D this is consider being a professional...

now I would argue that outside combat this person would rarely ever have to roll to do any piloting, espcially compared to the many unstatted where it is unrasnobale that everyman is a professional pilot, also flies around with no diffulty.

so how hard should things be and is this the issue with thw 11, 12 13 and higher Dice, do we need them is it that hard, should it be?


If a 2D Piloting common galacitc citicen can have a transport and get around with little difficulty then should a tranied academy educated polot have to roll to see if he can take off of manage to land?

so to me the numbers are out of proprtions becuse GMs and Players alike deem tasks more difficult than what they are.

This in turn forces more and more skill point to be allocated....


I would day that on the Tier 1 military units, like royal guarsd we should not have mufh more than 8D or 9D at the most, including any speciality

however a common 5D or 4D pilot should be abble to pilot most of the time without rolling at all.

I base this on a rule from 3.5 D&D which made a lot of sense. it was about the riding skill, and how it was described.

Everyone can ride, and everyone rides every day, no roll is need to mount and rinde the hosre from a to be, not even if galloping at speed, to a certain level of course.

Only when needing to jump a fense or a little creek, or when you have to dodge a flying arrow while in the saddle etc etc, only then do you roll vs the skill.

this means basically that you alsmost never use the skill, and becuse you are in fact skilled you actually automatically succeed in most tasks you do regadless of skill used.

I do not feel that I roll anything at all to take the car to my daily drive to work....I just drive and I automatically succeed, however if I am chased and have to begin evasive driving or I speed up and swirl in and out of traffic then of course I would have to roll if it was a game.

so I belive all of this is fue to too many rolls for too many things prompting too many skill points to be needed.

I am sure that reducing most of the difficultues to a more realistic level would also reduce the need to have any character with any skill much above 8D or 9D after a long time being expert in the skill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mamatried
There are just so many factual errors in this post and misunderstanding once again of skills and die codes that I just give up. Several things already discussed at length in other threads about skill use and difficulty and how an average "mook: can have a good die code in their professional skill...etc..

As to Grievous being force sensitive, that is very much up for debate as it is stated very clearly in the film by Grievous that Dooku trained him in the Jedi arts.

With that I'm out. Repetition of topics really just drags me down.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
@Mamatried
There are just so many factual errors in this post and misunderstanding once again of skills and die codes that I just give up. Several things already discussed at length in other threads about skill use and difficulty and how an average "mook: can have a good die code in their professional skill...etc..

As to Grievous being force sensitive, that is very much up for debate as it is stated very clearly in the film by Grievous that Dooku trained him in the Jedi arts.

With that I'm out. Repetition of topics really just drags me down.



It is not about the number, as you say a mook can have many high skill dice if needed. My point that I seems to fail to have made is that I belive that many of the very high skill write ups, like the OP about Griveous Lightsaber skills, and of course many other wrtie ups mpst being fan based and again balanced enough.
However the numbers I belive comes out this high due to both us a GMs and Players may too often deem something too difficult compared to what it perhaps should be or is.

Without going into numbers, but difficulties to explain them we can look to a professional military pilot, educated through some form of academy and as such gaining usually more flight hours during his traning than most civilian pilots, in civilian schools, and as such if the civilian hobby pilot who can not fly as often as the Military pilot will be able to do hobby flying only, but land and take off with ease, but I am sure most of us will have the challenge of things brought into the game after all it is a big part of things, and we roll for these landing and maybe the take offs, and this can then lead to the heroic, a cut above the rest character to"fail" more often than what it would at least appear as comapred to if the mooks did the same task.
Again skill dice is not the issue the level of difficulty set, if the landing is very easy it is 3-5 usually always sucess unless unlucky with wild dice, however if it is Moderate then yes it will be a fair challenge to the paluer character, but at the same time the mook skill level would make little sense, what did he do to find time to get that many hours? quit working and go deeply into dept with some hutt to fund fules so he can fly non stop?

So it is not again about how high a level anyine can have comapered to others, it is about how difficult we as players and GM really "decide" a task is


This makes us players increase the skills a lot and super specilize into very high skill leves, simply to be able to roll these challenges and that perhaps we should have rolled much less of these and use automatically succeded on many of them.

We can of argue that acutamtics sucess for someon thrained in a mundane or routine task can still fail and miserably so, and we should acount for that by rolling wild dice, but no skill roll.

if we look at what we as GMs content creators, Players and forum members have landed on with various difficulty numners then I am sure many such skill level too high? or even to low questions can maybe be much easier to explain
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mamatried,
I wanted to just let it be, but this needs addressed clearly and directly.
First:
Most of your previous post I replied to, and your newest post, have nothing to do with the topic or question raised directly. Instead, the majority of it is you once again railing on difficulty numbers and the D6 system skills and what Die Codes mean that it seems clear to me you do not completely understand - and it is discussions that have been had in numerous other threads already. You really need to not only familiarize yourself with the skill system in more depth, but the Universal Standards Die Code Equivalency in D6 as you do not seem to understand not only what a competent and professional Die Code level is, but what difficulties are appropriate for various relative mundane tasks.

Mamatried wrote:
I think we have to look at several factors, first Griveous was meant to be a "boss" and while being very skilled, he is not force sensitive, he can not "do" stuff with his lightsabers other than strike and swirl.

How you decided this is beyond me. He was not designed as a boss monster, he was designed as a villain in a movie. There is evidence to indicate he is force sensitive, and it is up for debate - so while this is your opinion and the opinions of others, it is not fact in relation to WEG rules as there are no official WEG facts on this character.

Quote:
One issue is the numbers, the extrmely high dice in the skills, and to this I would say that most of the write ups we have that are fan based (though mostly well within RAW and balanced enough) we have the issue of how difficult things are, and the difficulty tables in the books.

Nothing fan based is within RAW. RAW is only the Rules As Written as they appear in the final published edition of Star Wars the Role Playing Game by West End Games 2nd Edition Revised and Expanded. Nothing Fan Made can ever be RAW.

Quote:
These are meant for players more so than NPCs and as such they are inflated..

No, the stats, die codes, and difficulties are meant to apply to Player and NPC alike. Players are given an edge and advantages in how many dice of skills because, as it does say in RAW, they are playing larger than life characters and heroes.

Quote:
What I mean is that most NPCs or rather the common folk of the galaxy live their lives fully and work in jobs where a palyer would normally have to roll against difficuties much higher than what a common mook will be able to roll, yet they actually do succeed, they manage to drie their taxi, to avoid the crash, they can repair it somewhat, and such.....they even frequently thoughout life manage quite complex and difficult taks with a soemwhat level of ease...

No, most of the tasks that the average citizen manages are mundane and not very difficult. The average Taxi Driver isn't dodging blaster fire on crowded streets in a high speed chase with biker scouts. MOST professionals in a field would have a 4D in 1-2 relevant skills, while a specialist might have 5D. This allows them to handle tasks above mundane, even complex ones, and if taking time and preparing (which would often come into play) could get extra dice for that making it reasonable for a single "Mook" character who is a specialist in his field to accomplish even difficult tasks without any help - when in reality most tasks that are going to fall under difficult or very difficult are either team tasks or are performed by people with well beyond mundane ability and skill. This is the whole point to the Universal Standards chart for Die Codes.


Quote:
so how hard is it to go full speed on the swoo and make that 90 degree turn?
I would say just as hard or easy as for the non player common unstatted mook commoner thar does this many times thtough their life.

The average "mook" is not going to be going through 90 degree turns at high speed his whole life - this is an absolutely ridiculous analogy. I agree the difficulty should be the same for Players and NPCs alike, regardless of Die Code, but that unstated "mook" is likely going to wipe out and kill himself. The average galactic citizen is not driving speeders like they are rally drivers, or race professionals they would be piloting casually. In real life the average driver seems to have trouble with even gentle turns at low speed, let alone driving in any adverse condition.

Quote:
the rolls for agriculture to see if you mamage you harvest, as a player, the numbers rolled so much higher than any commoner out there....yet they manage.

Umm...not even sure where this anology comes from... though if you were to get into difficulties for agriculture it should be based on the heartiness of the crop, the weather and climate conditions, and any special modifiers (disease, blight, infestation, etc...). This has absolutely never even come up in any D6 game (or other RPG for that matter) I have ever run or played in.


Quote:
If we look to templates for guidance we see a fully tranied and qualified, but freshly graduated military fighter pilot (without adding extra skill points to the piloting skills) is at 4D this is consider being a professional...

now I would argue that outside combat this person would rarely ever have to roll to do any piloting, espcially compared to the many unstatted where it is unrasnobale that everyman is a professional pilot, also flies around with no diffulty.

You cannot justify your point of view by leaving off skill dice. Even the unstated everyman has skill dice above the base attribute - and even the unstated everymen is assumed under D6 to have 4D is their chosen professional skill. This is covered in RAW. This is on the Universal Standards chart. EVEN the average PC could fly around in mundane conditions without making skill rolls unless the GM just likes forcing unnecessary rolls.

Quote:
so how hard should things be and is this the issue with thw 11, 12 13 and higher Dice, do we need them is it that hard, should it be?

There are Numerous places in RAW with guidelines on difficulty numbers and how hard any task should be. It is the tasks that are performed under very adverse situations of heroic and legendary difficulty that are going to need those extremely high die codes - the sorts of tasks and confrontations that will define the climax of a campaign - once the heros have reached those levels. In my longest running campaign (almost 30 months meeting almost weekly) the highest any one player skill got was 10D - and that was a huge accomplishment for that player and he was proud of it.
The thing is you keep saying things like Average, or Everyday, and then dragging out Hero and Legend die code levels, and difficulties and situations that are not average or mundane.


Quote:
If a 2D Piloting common galacitc citicen can have a transport and get around with little difficulty then should a tranied academy educated pilot have to roll to see if he can take off of manage to land?

Again, no galactic citizen who is a pilot by trade is going to be 2D skill. Even a hobbyist would be 3D minimum. Only a malicious GM insists on Die Rolls to take off or land unless the situation is not normal - This whole statement is both a false dichotomy and an equivocation fallacy.

Quote:
so to me the numbers are out of proprtions becuse GMs and Players alike deem tasks more difficult than what they are.

Understanding the rAw and the Universal Standards and the suggested difficulty by task examples given in RAW would prevent a lot of this.

Quote:
I would day that on the Tier 1 military units, like royal guarsd we should not have mufh more than 8D or 9D at the most, including any speciality

however a common 5D or 4D pilot should be abble to pilot most of the time without rolling at all.

Repeatedly discussed not only in your post but in numerous other threads... Does not fit or belong in this thread at all.

Quote:
I base this on a rule from 3.5 D&D which made a lot of sense. it was about the riding skill, and how it was described.

Everyone can ride, and everyone rides every day, no roll is need to mount and rinde the hosre from a to be, not even if galloping at speed, to a certain level of course.

Only when needing to jump a fense or a little creek, or when you have to dodge a flying arrow while in the saddle etc etc, only then do you roll vs the skill.

this means basically that you alsmost never use the skill, and becuse you are in fact skilled you actually automatically succeed in most tasks you do regadless of skill used.

Actually, no, everyone can't ride, not even in fantasy settings, so this is false from the start.
However. I know the concept you are trying to address, and this is NOT a rule from D&D. It is the idea of competent normal. I first encountered it in Call of Cthulhu back in 198-something. It has been discussed in these forums many times, and was part of a lengthy skill use document I made available here, in the defunct Yahoo group, and in other places, as far back as 2007. I agree, and in fact it is generally accepted by MOST good GMs that you are not going to have to roll for every little mundane daily task as long as you have the skill at a suitable base level (in D6 I would say 3D as this is considered competent average). This does not apply if the task is critical to the story, or if there are extenuating circumstances.


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so I belive all of this is fue to too many rolls for too many things prompting too many skill points to be needed.

This is the result of the play style of the GM and Players in a game and not the rules in any way.
I mean, honestly, do you really need the RAW in any game to spell out that Players should not need to roll a DEX check to wipe their bums? Something most sentients are capable of doing almost without thought...but then again, based on your arguments, since players allocated all those points to skills maybe they lack this ability everyone else takes for granted?

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I am sure that reducing most of the difficulties to a more realistic level would also reduce the need to have any character with any skill much above 8D or 9D after a long time being expert in the skill

The difficulties described and suggested in RAW are within reasonable levels...in some cases more than reasonable. A better understanding of how to assign difficulties and when to call for roles as well as exactly how skills work and what the Die Codes reflect is what is needed.
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