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Skill specialization without the main skill?
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Skill specialization without the main skill? Reply with quote

Is it possible for a character to have or acquire a skill specialization without having the main skill? For instance, can a character have space transports: YT-1300 without having space transports itself?

For every D6 character I've seen, I don't recall ever seeing such a thing as this in their stats, so I want to confirm this.

Apologies for the silly question, but I'm trying to confirm this so I can finish editing a character's stats in the Legacy of the Force fanbook.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem.

Quote:
Pg. 28, SW R&E: You roll the specialization's die code only when you use
the specific item or knowledge covered by the specialization;
otherwise, you roll the basic skill (or the attribute if you
haven't improved the skill).




Then, in the example, it says...

(notice the bold)

Quote:
Pg. 28-29, SW R&E: Greg decides to use his remaining
1D of beginning skill dice to get three specializations.
Greg decides Thannik specializes in blaster
pistol (a specialization of blaster), Wookiees (a
specialization of alien species), and Ghtroc
freighter (a specialization of space transports). He
adds 1D for each specialization.

Thannik's Blaster skill is 5D. Greg writes down
the blaster: blaster pistol specialization, which is
6D.

Now, whenever Thannik uses a blaster pistol,
Greg gets to roll 6D. Whenever Thannik uses any
other type of blaster, Greg only rolls 5D.

Since Thannik doesn't have any skill dice in
alien species, his alien species: Wookiees specialization
is 3D+2 (1D plus his 2D+2 Knowledge).


Thannik's final specialization, ID in space
transports: Ghtroc freighter, makes his specialization
die code 5D+2. Whenever Thannik pilots a
Ghtroc freighter, Greg gets to roll 5D+2; when
Thannik pilots any other starship that uses the
space transports skill, Greg rolls his space transports
die code of 4D+2.




And...

Quote:
Pg. 34 SW R&E: Specializations are separate skills. If a character
improves the basic skill, the specialization doesn't
improve; if the specialization is improved, the basic
skill doesn't go up.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ONLY time i have seen it was in a module for sparks. Even if you lacked the base skill you could learn the specialization (in this case it was cultures, Corporate sector authority) as part of the module.
BUT that was a house rule to do so.. Normally from all i have read, no you can't have the specialization without the base skill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
BUT that was a house rule to do so.. Normally from all i have read, no you can't have the specialization without the base skill

But as Wajeb just cited from R&E above your post, you can have a specialization without the base skill. It just raises from the attribute like a normal skill does. It's not a house rule. It's RAW.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
BUT that was a house rule to do so.. Normally from all i have read, no you can't have the specialization without the base skill

But as Wajeb just cited from R&E above your post, you can have a specialization without the base skill. It just raises from the attribute like a normal skill does. It's not a house rule. It's RAW.


Actually if you read his first quote from the book, it says "You roll the specialization's die code only when you use the specific item or knowledge covered by the specialization;
otherwise, you roll the basic skill (or the attribute if you
haven't improved the skill
)."

Note, it specifies if you have not raised the base skill. NOT if you don't have the skill.

Then the example for Thannik, shows that he didn't put any starting dice into his alien species, just one of his 3 specializations..

That last quote just says if you improve the base skill, any specialty you have doesn't improve. And visa versa..
No where in what he posted from the book, contradicted what i said whill..
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That raises an interesting question. If you can specialize without needing the general skill, why bother with Lightsaber or Bowcaster as separate skills? It's the same CP cost and basic effect for a Jedi to specialize in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber. Strictly speaking, a lightsaber isn't so much different from a sword as to need a separate skill. In the same way, a bowcaster isn't so much different from a Firearm (or Blaster, if you prefer).
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That raises an interesting question. If you can specialize without needing the general skill, why bother with Lightsaber or Bowcaster as separate skills?


Interesting point.

And...if you run First Edition, like me, you don't have to worry about it! Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since you only play 1E, and 1E doesn't have skill specialization, why bother asking?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, since you only play 1E, and 1E doesn't have skill specialization, why bother asking?


I don't remember asking anything in this thread.

I did do the answering in post #2, though. Shocked

Besides, I'm interested in all things D6 SW, any edition.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That raises an interesting question. If you can specialize without needing the general skill, why bother with Lightsaber or Bowcaster as separate skills? It's the same CP cost and basic effect for a Jedi to specialize in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber. Strictly speaking, a lightsaber isn't so much different from a sword as to need a separate skill. In the same way, a bowcaster isn't so much different from a Firearm (or Blaster, if you prefer).


Maybe because in the days where they made that rule, they WANTED more skills.. Unlike a lot of newer gamers it seems who like to combine all sorts of skills.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
BUT that was a house rule to do so.. Normally from all i have read, no you can't have the specialization without the base skill

But as Wajeb just cited from R&E above your post, you can have a specialization without the base skill. It just raises from the attribute like a normal skill does. It's not a house rule. It's RAW.


Actually if you read his first quote from the book, it says "You roll the specialization's die code only when you use the specific item or knowledge covered by the specialization;
otherwise, you roll the basic skill (or the attribute if you
haven't improved the skill
)."

Note, it specifies if you have not raised the base skill. NOT if you don't have the skill.

Then the example for Thannik, shows that he didn't put any starting dice into his alien species, just one of his 3 specializations.

I think I see what you're saying. The whole differentiation between skills listed on the character template and ones that aren't? You're saying that during char gen Thannik's player can only allocate dice to Alien Species: Wookiees without having the base Alien Species skill raised above the attribute first because Alien Species is listed on the template. Right?

Sorry, I view "have the skill" to mean any skill that has been raised above the attribute (in char gen or by advancement after play begins) because in play, a character can use any normal skill not listed on your template - It just defaults to the attribute. That applies equally to skills listed on the template that the player didn't raise, and skills that aren't even listed. After play begins, the listed template skills the player didn't allocate anything too are meaningless because they are in effect exactly the same as skills not listed. They can be used by default and they can be improved upon equally.

Nowadays I do like template listed skills to help the player focus in char gen. But based on the spirit of the char gen rules of a player creating his own template or making changes to existing templates where the GM has final approval or denial power over skills listed, I do allow a player to possibly allocate to a skill not listed if the player can give me a good reason (sufficiently developed background) explaining why the character would have that skill. So in my game, the skills listed on templates are not hard limitations but rather strong suggestions that can be exceeded with good reason. The same applies for skill specializations.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I think I see what you're saying. The whole differentiation between skills listed on the character template and ones that aren't? You're saying that during char gen Thannik's player can only allocate dice to Alien Species: Wookiees without having the base Alien Species skill raised above the attribute first because Alien Species is listed on the template. Right?


Yup. And since the example is Thannik the bounty hunter, looking in both the 1e and 2e/2e revised books, Alien species is one of his starting Know skills (though it was called alien races in 1e days!)

Whill wrote:
Sorry, I view "have the skill" to mean any skill that has been raised above the attribute (in char gen or by advancement after play begins) because in play, a character can use any normal skill not listed on your template - It just defaults to the attribute. That applies equally to skills listed on the template that the player didn't raise, and skills that aren't even listed.


And if you have noted in a # of threads, i have actually argued that certain skills should have penalties FOR defaulting, if you even could do so.. Such as scholar, first aid, and certain other ones..

Whill wrote:
After play begins, the listed template skills the player didn't allocate anything too are meaningless because they are in effect exactly the same as skills not listed. They can be used by default and they can be improved upon equally.

Nowadays I do like template listed skills to help the player focus in char gen. But based on the spirit of the char gen rules of a player creating his own template or making changes to existing templates where the GM has final approval or denial power over skills listed, I do allow a player to possibly allocate to a skill not listed if the player can give me a good reason (sufficiently developed background) explaining why the character would have that skill. So in my game, the skills listed on templates are not hard limitations but rather strong suggestions that can be exceeded with good reason. The same applies for skill specializations.


By that methodology, sure the "listed/unlisted' skill moniker is effectively meaningless. BUT if you require (by the book) finding a trainer, and learning a new skill, to even get the skill added, let alone improve it, it certainly is not meaningless... Having that skill already learned can save MONTHS (in game time that is) of trying to find a mentor, Rping to convince him or her to teach it (assuming they can, as some might be limited to those of that race, such as say flight for only those with wings), and then a few MORE months as your character goes through the steps to learn it...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I get the impression that it could be the middle of the day, and garhkal would insist it was night time because he read it in a WEG sourcebook.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
That raises an interesting question. If you can specialize without needing the general skill, why bother with Lightsaber or Bowcaster as separate skills? It's the same CP cost and basic effect for a Jedi to specialize in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber. Strictly speaking, a lightsaber isn't so much different from a sword as to need a separate skill. In the same way, a bowcaster isn't so much different from a Firearm (or Blaster, if you prefer).


Maybe because in the days where they made that rule, they WANTED more skills.. Unlike a lot of newer gamers it seems who like to combine all sorts of skills.

Yet again, "because WEG hath decreed it thusly."

I don't mind having more skills where appropriate, but WEG splitting off Lightsaber from the Melee skills, and Bowcaster from Firearms seems completely arbitrary, as though done to limit Jedi and Wookiees to those specific weapons and no others, and not because said weapons were so different and unique as to require a completely different skill set.

In other words, never mind a realistic distribution of skills, game balance must be enforced! Damn the realism! Full RAW ahead!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Yet again, "because WEG hath decreed it thusly."

...In other words, never mind a realistic distribution of skills, game balance must be enforced! d*mn the realism! Full RAW ahead!
...
Sometimes I get the impression that it could be the middle of the day, and garhkal would insist it was night time because he read it in a WEG sourcebook.

Yeah but then again, he misquotes RAW sometimes too...

garhkal wrote:
By that methodology, sure the "listed/unlisted' skill moniker is effectively meaningless. BUT if you require (by the book) finding a trainer, and learning a new skill, to even get the skill added, let alone improve it, it certainly is not meaningless... Having that skill already learned can save MONTHS (in game time that is) of trying to find a mentor, Rping to convince him or her to teach it (assuming they can, as some might be limited to those of that race, such as say flight for only those with wings), and then a few MORE months as your character goes through the steps to learn it...

That is not "by the book". Here is what the book actually says:

R&E p.35 wrote:
Learning New Skills

Skills and Specializations. Characters can learn a new skill or specialization by paying enough Character Points to advance it one pip above the attribute.

There is no training time if the character "used the skill" in the last adventure (i.e., used the attribute when doing something that would be covered by the skill). Otherwise, use the normal rules for training time.
    Example: Thannik wants to learn the bargain skill, which is based on his Perception (which is 3D). He pays three Character Points and gets bargain at 3D+1. If Thannik "bargained" in the last adventure — haggled with a merchant, for example—there's no training time and the skill improves immediately.

    If he didn't bargain in the last adventure, he has to train. If he has a teacher (anyone with bargain at 3D+1 or higher), it takes three days of training to learn the skill. If he doesn't have a teacher, he needs six days of training to learn the skill. He can reduce that time one day for each extra Character Point he spends.
The character must seek out an appropriate location and teacher for unusual skills. A character who wants to learn archaic starship piloting must find a willing teacher who has access to such a ship. Often, this will require going to a very primitive world, where such ships are still in common use.

To learn a new skill not listed on the character sheet you only have to improve it one pip. The normal cost, experience or trainer requirements, and training times apply. It is no different than improving a skill that is listed. You can do it different in your game, but if you do it is a house rule, not "by the book".

So as I said before, after character creation, skills listed on the template and skills not listed on the template work exactly the same by the book. Sure you need to seek out a teacher for unusual skills, but again, that is the same whether the skill is listed on the template or not.
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