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Skill specialization without the main skill?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think the rules are pretty clear. Specializations are separate skills with specific focus where as normal skills are areas of expertise with a wide focus.

Why would you not want to have both?

Because, if you don't have both, then your Specialization skill is going to be lower.

Let's take the Thannick example from SW R&E, that I copied up in post #2.





Thannick doesn't have the Alien Species skill, but he does want to take the specialization Alien Species: Wookiees.

The first "negative" to this is that the character is spending precious skill dice on a very narrow skill. Alien Species: Wookiees can only be used for information on Wookiees. It cannot be used for any other sort of alien species, and there are A LOT of alien species in the SW universe.

Thannick's KNO 2D + 2 is improved to Alien Species: Wookiees 3D + 2.



If Thannick had first purchased the Alien Species skills, this would help him tremendously in this area.

Let's say that he puts 2D into Alien Species before buying the Wookiee specialization.

KNO 2D+2
Alien Species 4D+2
Alien Species: Wookiee 5D+2


Not only does Thannik pick up Alien Species 4D+2, that he can use for any alien species, but he does also get a big boost to his specialization: Alien Species: Wookiee 5D +2.



I'll note that even his broad Alien Species skill is larger than his specialization if he hadn't purchased the skill.

Therefore, it's not really worth it to buy a specialization for a skill the character doesn't have--the end benefit isn't enough, in my opinion. Why get Alien Species: Wookiee 3D+2 when you can get the same skill at 5D+2 (or the broad skill at 4D+2 and save the specialization for use on other skill)?

But, the purchase is legal, according to the rules.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it makes sense to specialize once you get the base skill to a point you no longer want to raise it. If you never plan on raising the base skill at all, I can see specializing off the base attribute.

But it makes no sense to specialize and then go back and raise the base skill later because then you have thrown away CPs on the specialization.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Well it makes sense to specialize once you get the base skill to a point you no longer want to raise it. If you never plan on raising the base skill at all, I can see specializing off the base attribute.

But it makes no sense to specialize and then go back and raise the base skill later because then you have thrown away CPs on the specialization.


I think the rules read that you can only use specialization at character generation. You can't specialize after play has started.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I think the rules read that you can only use specialization at character generation. You can't specialize after play has started.

That's also not correct. Did you see my last post on the previous page?

R&E p.35 wrote:
Learning New Skills

Skills and Specializations. Characters can learn a new skill or specialization by paying enough Character Points to advance it one pip above the attribute.

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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That's also not correct. Did you see my last post on the previous page?


Ah. You are correct on that one. I mis-read it the rules in the book.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sometimes I get the impression that it could be the middle of the day, and garhkal would insist it was night time because he read it in a WEG sourcebook.


Well, this question IS in the official rules" section, ergo he's asking a BTB question. So one must look in the book to answer it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I don't mind having more skills where appropriate, but WEG splitting off Lightsaber from the Melee skills, and Bowcaster from Firearms seems completely arbitrary, as though done to limit Jedi and Wookiees to those specific weapons and no others, and not because said weapons were so different and unique as to require a completely different skill set.


IMO it was done as a balancing factor. Like i just answered to Arbitan in his Combined skill list thread, the more skills you have, the EASIER and cheaper it is CP wise to become great at a lot of things.. Where as with all the skills split up, it guarantees someone who is an ace say in a freighter, is NOT also the exact same ace in a fighter, an air speeder, a cap ship and any other space vessel he steps onto, just cause he has the one "ship piloting" skill at high level.
He would need to improve all those skills individually, which costs time and CP to do so..
Therefore PC's are going to be limited on how good they get.

Whill wrote:
To learn a new skill not listed on the character sheet you only have to improve it one pip. The normal cost, experience or trainer requirements, and training times apply. It is no different than improving a skill that is listed. You can do it different in your game, but if you do it is a house rule, not "by the book".


Whill, by your own quote it says "if they didn't use the function, they need to get a trainer to learn it from" (or take double time and pay more CP). Ergo it WAS btb. Just not the whole BTB i will admit.

Whill wrote:
Well it makes sense to specialize once you get the base skill to a point you no longer want to raise it. If you never plan on raising the base skill at all, I can see specializing off the base attribute.

But it makes no sense to specialize and then go back and raise the base skill later because then you have thrown away CPs on the specialization.


That's why most pcs i have DM'ed for, spec once their base skill gets to 5 or 6d. Some wait even till around 7d. Though i have seen some who cause of their concept specialized right of the get go with the skill at 3-4d, then after a while (and the specialty now being say 8d-9d) realizing that "Hey maybe i should have bumped the base skill up before specializing, thus now have to go back AND bump up the base skill..
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
IMO it was done as a balancing factor.

If so, then it was done stupidly. A lightsaber is nothing more complicated than a dangerous, hard-to-use sword, and there is nothing so distinct about its method of use as to be distinct from a normal sword: thus, Melee Weapons. In fact, making it part of Melee Combat would've made it harder to improve, not easier, as the PC would be spending CP to improve two skills instead of just one.

In combination with the rule being discussed in this topic, as I mentioned above, the same basic effect could be achieved by requiring the Jedi to take the specializations Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber instead of a single Lightsaber skill. Paying the CP cost to improve two specializations would be equal to that of improving a single skill, and would also lend itself to characters adding more nuance to their Lightsaber combat by specializing in attack or defense.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other advantage to Specializations is that the character can spend up to 5 CPs to increase a specialization roll instead of the usual limit of 2 CPs.

Quote:
There are limits to the number of Character Points
that can be spent:
• Two to improve a skill or attribute roll.
• Two to increase the damage of an attack. (This often
counts as an evil action.)
• Five to improve a specialization roll.
• Five on any use of dodge, melee parry or brawling
parry, parries when using the lightsaber skill, or dodging
when piloting a vehicle or starship.
• Five to increase a Strength roll to resist damage.
• A character may not spend Character Points on
another character's actions.
• A character can spend Character Points during
scenes, but only for one continuous action. The bonus
ends as soon as the character does something else.
from p. 84 of the 2E R&E rule set.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Specializations are separate skills. If a character
improves the basic skill, the specialization doesn't
improve; if the specialization is improved, the basic
skill doesn't go up.
Page 34 of the 2E R&E rules.

Despite the rules saying that specializations and the base skill are separate it still seems really weird for a character to end up with skills like this (actual example):

Survival 4D, Survival: Desert 3D

It also seems a bit nit picky to track and use in play. As a GM I'm tempted to simplify the character's skills when the base exceeds the specialization by deleting the specialization.

Example 1: A PC with Survival 3D, Survival: Desert 3D wants to improve. The player needs to choose whether to increase the specialization to 3D+1 or to increase the base skill to 3D+1 and lose the specialization.

But then I am, in effect, taking away the CPs the player spent to get the specialization. So I'm tempted to refund some or all of the CPs spent for the specialization.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
The other advantage to Specializations is that the character can spend up to 5 CPs to increase a specialization roll instead of the usual limit of 2 CPs.

Quote:
There are limits to the number of Character Points
that can be spent:
• Two to improve a skill or attribute roll.
• Two to increase the damage of an attack. (This often
counts as an evil action.)
• Five to improve a specialization roll.
• Five on any use of dodge, melee parry or brawling
parry, parries when using the lightsaber skill, or dodging
when piloting a vehicle or starship.
• Five to increase a Strength roll to resist damage.
• A character may not spend Character Points on
another character's actions.
• A character can spend Character Points during
scenes, but only for one continuous action. The bonus
ends as soon as the character does something else.
from p. 84 of the 2E R&E rule set.


Of course, I'm always using a specialization... I just didn't put any points in it. Wink
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is exactly the way that males most sense to me. An additional method that I like equally is to allow for the specialization to raise WITH the skill retaining it's differential, WITH the option to increase the specialization by paying the specialization cost.


Bren wrote:
Quote:
Specializations are separate skills. If a character
improves the basic skill, the specialization doesn't
improve; if the specialization is improved, the basic
skill doesn't go up.
Page 34 of the 2E R&E rules.

Despite the rules saying that specializations and the base skill are separate it still seems really weird for a character to end up with skills like this (actual example):

Survival 4D, Survival: Desert 3D

It also seems a bit nit picky to track and use in play. As a GM I'm tempted to simplify the character's skills when the base exceeds the specialization by deleting the specialization.

Example 1: A PC with Survival 3D, Survival: Desert 3D wants to improve. The player needs to choose whether to increase the specialization to 3D+1 or to increase the base skill to 3D+1 and lose the specialization.

But then I am, in effect, taking away the CPs the player spent to get the specialization. So I'm tempted to refund some or all of the CPs spent for the specialization.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
This is exactly the way that males most sense to me. An additional method that I like equally is to allow for the specialization to raise WITH the skill retaining it's differential, WITH the option to increase the specialization by paying the specialization cost.
Let me see if I understand you by laying out an example.

Bren has Survival 4D and Survival: Desert 4D+2. He has several choices.

1. Increase Survival to 4D+1 which would cost 4 CPs and his Survival: Desert would stay 4D+2.

2. Increase Survival: Desert to 5D which would cost 2 CPs and his Survival would stay 4D.

3. Increase Survival to 4D (cost 4 CPs) AND increase his Survival: Desert to 5D (cost 2 CPs) for a total cost of 6 CPs.

Did I understand what you were proposing?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Quote:
Specializations are separate skills. If a character
improves the basic skill, the specialization doesn't
improve; if the specialization is improved, the basic
skill doesn't go up.
Page 34 of the 2E R&E rules.

Despite the rules saying that specializations and the base skill are separate it still seems really weird for a character to end up with skills like this (actual example):

Survival 4D, Survival: Desert 3D

It also seems a bit nit picky to track and use in play. As a GM I'm tempted to simplify the character's skills when the base exceeds the specialization by deleting the specialization.

Example 1: A PC with Survival 3D, Survival: Desert 3D wants to improve. The player needs to choose whether to increase the specialization to 3D+1 or to increase the base skill to 3D+1 and lose the specialization.

But then I am, in effect, taking away the CPs the player spent to get the specialization. So I'm tempted to refund some or all of the CPs spent for the specialization.


The only time i've seen someone NOT increase a specialty and go with increasing the base skill, they had already taken the specialty to the 8-10d region, and was now bumping up the main skill, cause they kept getting hit by NOT having that up.. like someone who had dodge-energy weapons, kept getting tagged with enemies lobbing grenades, starts working on upping his base dodge again..
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Skill specialization without the main skill? Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Is it possible for a character to have or acquire a skill specialization without having the main skill? For instance, can a character have space transports: YT-1300 without having space transports itself?

For every D6 character I've seen, I don't recall ever seeing such a thing as this in their stats, so I want to confirm this.

Apologies for the silly question, but I'm trying to confirm this so I can finish editing a character's stats in the Legacy of the Force fanbook.


Yes, you're correct.
It can get a bit wacky purchasing Specs after character creation (as they are, as mentioned in other replies, treated as separate skills) but I suppose as the needs of the story change, so too might your needs for a more broader or specialised skill.

We've always done it and never really had any difficulties keeping track. I usually specialise and will have some building on a skill, while others build on attribute.
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