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Non-Hyperspace FTL
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Non-Hyperspace FTL Reply with quote

Just an idle thought:

Has any Star Wars material covered FTL that wasn't hyperspace based? Space fold, mass effect drives, etc.?

I keep thinking about the SWG encountering a primitive species and not understanding HOW they got there, because they don't travel through hyperspace like normal people.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Non-Hyperspace FTL Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Has any Star Wars material covered FTL that wasn't hyperspace based? Space fold, mass effect drives, etc.?

I keep thinking about the SWG encountering a primitive species and not understanding HOW they got there, because they don't travel through hyperspace like normal people.


I never played it--never read it either--so I'm not sure. But, what about the WEG D6 adventures Otherspace and Otherspace II?
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Kwa Infinity Gates explicitly use terminology which is different from the entire Hyperspace thing. Their gates is said to utilize a principle first known to the Celestials - indicating that there might be a whole new area of technology related to this.

Then, there's the Gree Hyperspace gates - which does use "Hyperspace" in its description, but the Maker only knows what's going on with that flute-playing cephalopod - and why doesn't it know anything but "tekeli-li"?

Anyhow, there's also the Otherspace described in the modules mentioned by Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, but that isn't described as being coterminous with the Galaxy's realspace - so it seems improbable that it can be used reliably as a method of FTL travel.

The Sharu also seem to be a good candidate for an alternate FTL travel system due to their mastery of multiple dimensions (as evinced by the Mindharp), but nothing of travel is mentioned explicitly to my knowledge.

The Aing-Tii fold, spindle and mutilate the Force through an entire spectrum of techniques, and could move their perception point through time and space through 'flow-walking'. They could also teleport objects through the Force. Basically, they have the cheat codes of the universe. Or at least in the Kathol Rift.

A lesser version of flow-walking might be known to the Adepts of the White Current, as they had something they called 'Force immersion'. It was basically using the Force to turn into something of a ghost - but it didn't seem to offer the ability to cast one's center of perception like the flow-walking of the Aing-Tii.

So basically, some species in Star Wars have, or have had access to technology that seemed to utilize higher (or lower) dimensions for FTL travel, and the Celestials seem to have been first. Then, the Force offers a variety of ways to do this, either as an expansion of Farseeing or as actual travel - both abilities used by the Aing-Tii.

Essentially, if you wanted to do something like that described in Babylon 5's "Thirdspace" or offer novel ways of FTL travel such as a skip drive or Alcubierre drive, there's ample EU examples to legitimize that - or at least make it plausible.
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evilnerf
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Essential Atlas says the Devaronians and the Gossams used something called a "Tumbledrive" before the advent of Hyper drive, but does not elaborate.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Essentially, if you wanted to do something like that described in Babylon 5's "Thirdspace" or offer novel ways of FTL travel such as a skip drive or Alcubierre drive, there's ample EU examples to legitimize that - or at least make it plausible.


Thanks, y'all. It's more of something I occasionally play with. I've always liked First Contact scenarios, and wanted some fun curveballs one might throw at people. Star Trek-like spacefold of course comes to mind, especially as, unlike hyperdrive, it has immediate tactical uses.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing i liked that Stargate did was made it where each race's hyperdrives worked on similar principles but hit different "Frequencies".

BUT i would have loved seeing that taken a step further to where each races's frequency for their hyperdrives opened up into a separate "wave length" for hyperpsace.. Sort of like each race had its own "Lane" no other ship could cross into it sort of thing"...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I've considered in the past but never got around to posting is a wormhole gate system combining aspects of Babylon 5 jump gates and the wormhole "hyperspace bridges" of the Honor Harrington universe.

In the Honorverse, ships are equipped with hyperdrives that allow travel through higher dimensions, much like in the SWU. However, there is a second method of travel, where a network of fixed-location wormholes allow instantaneous transit across hundreds of lightyears, greatly reducing trip times. This serves as the in-universe equivalent of strategically and economically valuable time-saving transit points like the Suez and Panama Canals; control over such a junction (and the charging of tolls and other fees to use a wormhole) can make or break entire systems by allowing ships to bypass standard hyperspace routes.

What I envisioned at the time was using B5-style jump gates located at wormhole openings to force a bubble of realspace (containing a ship) through a wormhole and out the other side, bypassing a hyperspace journey of days or weeks.

The problem is that it is very difficult to fit into the existing SWU without seriously unbalancing things...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
One thing i liked that Stargate did was made it where each race's hyperdrives worked on similar principles but hit different "Frequencies".

BUT i would have loved seeing that taken a step further to where each races's frequency for their hyperdrives opened up into a separate "wave length" for hyperpsace.. Sort of like each race had its own "Lane" no other ship could cross into it sort of thing"...

An idea I liked from the Honorverse is to have different "levels" of hyperspace, each progressively more hazardous to enter, but allowing faster transit speeds the higher up you go. Each level was distinct from the others, and ships in one level could not interact with ships in the other levels.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
One thing i liked that Stargate did was made it where each race's hyperdrives worked on similar principles but hit different "Frequencies".

BUT i would have loved seeing that taken a step further to where each races's frequency for their hyperdrives opened up into a separate "wave length" for hyperpsace.. Sort of like each race had its own "Lane" no other ship could cross into it sort of thing"...

An idea I liked from the Honorverse is to have different "levels" of hyperspace, each progressively more hazardous to enter, but allowing faster transit speeds the higher up you go. Each level was distinct from the others, and ships in one level could not interact with ships in the other levels.


And, Traveller has six or more "levels" of jump space. Like what is said here above, each frequency, if you will, is faster than the other. I believe this is discussed in the MegaTrav Starship Operator's Manual (fantastic book). There's J-1 space, J-2 space, and so on up to J-6 space, but it is thought that even higher levels of J-space exist--it just hasn't been discovered yet--to account for mis-jumps.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Something I've considered in the past but never got around to posting is a wormhole gate system combining aspects of Babylon 5 jump gates and the wormhole "hyperspace bridges" of the Honor Harrington universe.

In the Honorverse, ships are equipped with hyperdrives that allow travel through higher dimensions, much like in the SWU. However, there is a second method of travel, where a network of fixed-location wormholes allow instantaneous transit across hundreds of lightyears, greatly reducing trip times. This serves as the in-universe equivalent of strategically and economically valuable time-saving transit points like the Suez and Panama Canals; control over such a junction (and the charging of tolls and other fees to use a wormhole) can make or break entire systems by allowing ships to bypass standard hyperspace routes.

What I envisioned at the time was using B5-style jump gates located at wormhole openings to force a bubble of realspace (containing a ship) through a wormhole and out the other side, bypassing a hyperspace journey of days or weeks.

The problem is that it is very difficult to fit into the existing SWU without seriously unbalancing things...


Hmm. Would it be unbalancing if the Gates were restricted to being located only in systems containing major worlds that could properly defend the gates? .

There could even be a feature like a scanner or an IFF that identifies incoming ships and redirects unauthorized incoming ships to a different gate.

Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series has an instantaneous gate system that requires ships have an authorized "key" to use, and gate destinations can be restricted, shut down entirely, or ships can be redirected to different destinations.

In his books the other alternative is jumping from system to system.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Something I've considered in the past but never got around to posting is a wormhole gate system combining aspects of Babylon 5 jump gates and the wormhole "hyperspace bridges" of the Honor Harrington universe.


I wonder if you could make something similar for known hyperspace routes... rather than needing a hyperdrive motivator, you go through the gate, then use a hyperspace impeller (to borrow your phrase) to move through hyperspace, coming out at another hyperspace gate.

Quote:

In the Honorverse, ships are equipped with hyperdrives that allow travel through higher dimensions, much like in the SWU. However, there is a second method of travel, where a network of fixed-location wormholes allow instantaneous transit across hundreds of lightyears, greatly reducing trip times. This serves as the in-universe equivalent of strategically and economically valuable time-saving transit points like the Suez and Panama Canals; control over such a junction (and the charging of tolls and other fees to use a wormhole) can make or break entire systems by allowing ships to bypass standard hyperspace routes.


Hmmm... makes me think of DS9, where there's a stable wormhole that leads to a far corner of the galaxy. ST FTL is slower than SW FTL, but a wormhole could still make a valuable trade route.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
Would it be unbalancing if the Gates were restricted to being located only in systems containing major worlds that could properly defend the gates?

No, it throws it off in that it suddenly adds a completely new method of travel that bypasses major trade routes by providing an alternative. A GM would have to make some major decisions as to how widespread this transit network would be, and how it would affect the existing hyperspace network.

Quote:
There could even be a feature like a scanner or an IFF that identifies incoming ships and redirects unauthorized incoming ships to a different gate.

In the Honorverse, wormholes were specifically linked to each other; if you went in one hole, you came out of the other, and vice versa. Even in the event of a wormhole nexus (multiple holes leading to different locations), ships had to arrive at the nexus and reposition to enter a gate leaving from the nexus to a different terminus.

Quote:
Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series has an instantaneous gate system that requires ships have an authorized "key" to use, and gate destinations can be restricted, shut down entirely, or ships can be redirected to different destinations.

In his books the other alternative is jumping from system to system.

By adding in the B5 Jumpgate idea, my thinking would be that it's a linked system that requires control and cooperation between both ends, with one gate generating a "sending" pulse and the other generating a simultaneous "receiving" pulse as part of the transit method. Taking one end by force would allow you to close the gate, but you couldn't send your own ships through without the cooperation of whoever controlled the gate on the other side.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conceptually, I don't think there is a place in the SWU for Trek-type warp drives, if only because a ship traveling at warp speeds will only be capable of interacting with other, equally equipped ships. Ships in hyperspace travel far faster, taking weeks to cross the galaxy instead of decades,. IMO, warp drive ships would be an anomaly, and not widely accepted.

The only real use I could see for them in galactic society as we know it would be as a specialized drive for scouts, traveling at ridiculously slow speeds relative to other ships, but still at superluminal velocities, and able to view space around them, and thus be able to slow down for a closer look if they find something interesting.

Either that, or as pathfinders mapping new hyperspace routes, being able to scan the route for obstacles and such.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
No, it throws it off in that it suddenly adds a completely new method of travel that bypasses major trade routes by providing an alternative. A GM would have to make some major decisions as to how widespread this transit network would be, and how it would affect the existing hyperspace network.



Okay. How about a technology that was designed and built on the outskirts of the galaxy, Say in something like our own Magellanic Clouds?



Quote:
By adding in the B5 Jumpgate idea, my thinking would be that it's a linked system that requires control and cooperation between both ends, with one gate generating a "sending" pulse and the other generating a simultaneous "receiving" pulse as part of the transit method. Taking one end by force would allow you to close the gate, but you couldn't send your own ships through without the cooperation of whoever controlled the gate on the other side.


Sounds great.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Conceptually, I don't think there is a place in the SWU for Trek-type warp drives, if only because a ship traveling at warp speeds will only be capable of interacting with other, equally equipped ships. Ships in hyperspace travel far faster, taking weeks to cross the galaxy instead of decades,. IMO, warp drive ships would be an anomaly, and not widely accepted.

The only real use I could see for them in galactic society as we know it would be as a specialized drive for scouts, traveling at ridiculously slow speeds relative to other ships, but still at superluminal velocities, and able to view space around them, and thus be able to slow down for a closer look if they find something interesting.

Either that, or as pathfinders mapping new hyperspace routes, being able to scan the route for obstacles and such.


As scouts for new hyperspace routes into unexplored regions is brilliant. Slower but a helluva lot safer.
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