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Melee combat
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Melee combat Reply with quote

Drop melee and brawling parry.

When an attack is declared both parties roll melee or brawling.
The winner dose damage to the looser.

Speed up melee combat and make it scarier.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So he who has the more CP to spend into maxing out melee or brawl, wins? Since you are getting rid of one of the potential CP sinks, isn't that a self defeating rule, cause its now Easier to boost melee or brawl??
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So he who has the more CP to spend into maxing out melee or brawl, wins? Since you are getting rid of one of the potential CP sinks, isn't that a self defeating rule, cause its now Easier to boost melee or brawl??


No I was trying to simplify rolling and make it more lethal.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
Drop melee and brawling parry.

When an attack is declared both parties roll melee or brawling.
The winner dose damage to the looser.

Speed up melee combat and make it scarier.


Idea 1: You want more lethal? Use First Edition. There are no CPs in 1E. Trust me. It's lethal. Players respect gun fights in 1E.



Idea 2: If you want to keep the CPs, you could change the limits allowed on task rolls and defense rolls.



Idea 3: CPs are the reason that most games get very "heroic". If you want a more gritty game, then be stingy in awarding CPs. As the game says, only award CPs at the end of an adventure. Even then, make sure your players earn each and every one.



Idea 4: There's a nifty optional rule in the SpecForce book. If you use it correctly, it will make the game damn lethal.

The rule allows a character to take a minus number of dice on his attack roll and add an equal amount to his damage roll.

The rule makes sense because targets who are at closer range are easier to hit and will take more damage than those targets farther away.

For example, Mardar Twan fires his blaster at a Rodian bounty hunter. Twan has Blaster 5D, and he's using a heavy blaster pistol that does 5D damage.

Twan's player decides to remove 2D from the attack, throwing 3D to hit. But if he does hit, then the damage is 7D--which will wreck the target's entire day.

BIG NOTE: DO NOT allow players to use CPs with this rule. If you do, they'll end up replacing the 2D from the attack with CPs, throwing 5D and still get 7D damage. CPs are not meant to increase damage. Since NPC hardly ever have CPs, and when they do, the NPCs don't have many, then allowing players to use CPs with this rule basically makes the game more heroic. The PCs get deadlier while the NPCs stay the same and don't pose a stronger threat to the players.

NPCs should be able to use the swapping dice rule, though, if the players use it.

This is a way to get Second Edition to feel a bit more like the gritty 1E version of the game.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP:

I think your idea can work, but there would need to be a few considerations: what effect will the turn-based style of play have? Can I be damaged on my turn,? Sounds like that is what you are going for: the better fighter just totally dominates. Also, what if I choose not to roll melee combat, but instead try to escape? Do I avoild the risk of getting hit on my own turn?

Will there be an advantage for people using weapons against people using brawling? RAW provides for this.

And, will you allow the full parry?

Lastly, do you jave a problem with the fact that blaster still opposes dodge, or would you consider replacing the ranged combat system with a single skill such as "Gunfighting"?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
...(SR = Damage Roll, SR = Strength Roll)...

1e Character Damage Summary
DR < SR Stunned
DR ≥ SR Wounded
DR ≥ 2xSR Incapacitated
DR ≥ 3xSR Mortally Wounded

In 1e we didn't subtract. We multiplied! Wounded was the most common result of a blaster hit. Incapacitated results were most commonly achieved through being wounded twice (even stormtroopers), and mortally wounded results were rare. The die roll result ranges are proportional to each other so there is a mathematical elegance to it, but this doesn't seem to be a very good translation of the reality of the films because characters getting hit by one blaster bolt almost always do not get back up (even armored characters such as stormtroopers), which in game terms would mean incapacitated or worse with a single shot.

However, please note that in 1e there was no such thing as completely 'soaking' a hit (no "no effect" result) - A hit always meant at least a stunned result...
...here is the 2e update:

2e Character Damage Chart
DR>SR
0-3 Stunned
4-8 Wounded
9-12 Incapacitated
13-15 Mortally Wounded
16+ Killed

2e did away with multiples. R&E uses the above chart unchanged, but officially introduced the wounded twice status...


Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
You want more lethal? Use First Edition. There are no CPs in 1E. Trust me. It's lethal. Players respect gun fights in 1E.

It is true there are no CPs, and 1e is harsher in some ways such as there being no soak (every successful attack was at least a stun) but I didn't have the experience of the game being more lethal for PCs. There was no instantly killed result unless you were already mortally wounded, and bad guys usually don't keep attacking once PC is Incapacitated or otherwise unconscious. And getting Mortally Wounded was extremely rare because the damage roll has to be triple the resistance roll. It only happened to PCs a couple times. In fact in my 1e days, even my players agreed that the game wasn't lethal enough so we added 1D to the damage value of all character-scale blaster weapons as a patch.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Melee combat Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
Drop melee and brawling parry.

When an attack is declared both parties roll melee or brawling.
The winner dose damage to the looser.

Speed up melee combat and make it scarier.


Shadowrun 2nd edition did it similar to that.

Personally I don't use melee parry and brawling parry as separate skills.

BUT I do have new skills called Melee attack power and Brawling attack power.

They are STRENGTH based skills. You substitute the skill for your character's STR when rolling damage from your Melee or Brawling attacks respectively. (Replaces the STR portion of a melee weapon's damage code in the case of melee)

This makes close combat lethal enough for me.

Also, I also have a 'Toughness' skill that is based on STR. You roll it to resist brawling attacks instead of STR...but it can't be used for edged weapons, firearms or blasters.

This lets two skilled fighters duke it out for a while; as per a boxing or MMA match without it being a one-punch knock out; though against characters who haven't put the time and effort (CPs) into the toughness, can certainly be seriously hurt by a single attack from a professional brawler.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice solution. It definitely has a Dredwulf feel to it (based on other stuff you've posted). I, too, feel that a means of scaling toughness is missing from D6.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
garhkal wrote:
So he who has the more CP to spend into maxing out melee or brawl, wins? Since you are getting rid of one of the potential CP sinks, isn't that a self defeating rule, cause its now Easier to boost melee or brawl??


No I was trying to simplify rolling and make it more lethal.


To make it more lethal, why not go the route of Rules of Engagement, and allow extra damage from real good hits, to where say for
Brawl, its a flat 1-1, so if john hits william with a 29 and william's parry was only 17, john adds 12 to his damage roll.
Melee, is a 1 added to damage per 3 over on the to hit roll
Missile/blaster fire is 1 per 5..

Naaman wrote:
OP:

I think your idea can work, but there would need to be a few considerations: what effect will the turn-based style of play have? Can I be damaged on my turn,? Sounds like that is what you are going for: the better fighter just totally dominates. Also, what if I choose not to roll melee combat, but instead try to escape? Do I avoild the risk of getting hit on my own turn?


Another question, would be could someone do multiple actions under this?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned, the "Higher roll wins" is used in Shadowrun, and I think it gets interesting with multiple actions... but a little brutal.

Let us say that I am fighting Garkhal. Being a military veteran, he has a 6D melee, despite being an old fart. Being a fat librarian, I have 3D Brawling (really, it's just the attribute). If we use highest roll wins AND multiple actions, Garkh's solution is simple... attack me three times. He's taking a -2D to his actions, sure, but his 4D on three attacks is going to destroy my 1D.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
As mentioned, the "Higher roll wins" is used in Shadowrun, and I think it gets interesting with multiple actions... but a little brutal.

Let us say that I am fighting Garkhal. Being a military veteran, he has a 6D melee, despite being an old fart. Being a fat librarian, I have 3D Brawling (really, it's just the attribute). If we use highest roll wins AND multiple actions, Garkh's solution is simple... attack me three times. He's taking a -2D to his actions, sure, but his 4D on three attacks is going to destroy my 1D.


Yes the idea was based off of shadowrun.

Multiple actions against multiple opponents, making group combat nasty.

Sigh, I hadn't thought about full parry.

I was thinking dodge to avoid combat.

Yes you could get damaged on your turn, one reason to think before trying to slice and dice.

Also if someone attacks you they maybe the ones dying.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
As mentioned, the "Higher roll wins" is used in Shadowrun, and I think it gets interesting with multiple actions... but a little brutal.

Let us say that I am fighting Garkhal. Being a military veteran, he has a 6D melee, despite being an old fart.


I've only got a 4d melee. But i have a specialty of pimp slap with a book for 7d, and throw weapons (dice) 8d! Razz Razz Razz
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Savar
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
As mentioned, the "Higher roll wins" is used in Shadowrun, and I think it gets interesting with multiple actions... but a little brutal.

Let us say that I am fighting Garkhal. Being a military veteran, he has a 6D melee, despite being an old fart.


I've only got a 4d melee. But i have a specialty of pimp slap with a book for 7d, and throw weapons (dice) 8d! Razz Razz Razz


Rofl
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dph
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been doing this for while now and it works great!

Haven't seen it tip the balance either way.

In my games it results in players actually bothering to take Melee or Brawl (whereas before they just stay out of the action) meaning as a GM I can throw a bit more hand to hand in guilt free, and players actually end up spending more in other skills like Perception and Knowledge.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it interesting how making combat skills MORE atrainable results in characters with a more diversified skill set? I have seen this happen in other situations as well. When players dont feel the need to be miserly with their CPs, they tend to spread them around a bit.
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