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Imperial Stormtrooper v2.0
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It's pretty obvious from this conversation that you either don't actually own all the WEG books or that you can't be bothered to read them. Why should your opinion on the matter concern me when you may just be making it up as you go along?


So someone who doesn't own all the books should just be quiet (polite way of saying it), since their opinion doesn't matter to you...


Got it. Don't bother looking for me to make any further comments on ANYTHING OF yours.. Assuming i even open the damn thread.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So someone who doesn't own all the books should just be quiet (polite way of saying it), since their opinion doesn't matter to you...

Actually, I have no problem with someone not owning all the books. My problem is, if someone makes a habit of shooting down the ideas of myself and others because "WEG doesn't allow that," then that person had d@mn well better know their WEG back to front.


Quote:
Got it. Don't bother looking for me to make any further comments on ANYTHING OF yours.. Assuming i even open the d*mn thread.

Again? That trick never works!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its funny you say that, Whill, about Boba Fett. I feel the same about him given his "performance" in RotJ...
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think garhkal had a point back on page 1; the "No All-Out" rule isn't really necessary, since under their WEG stats, stormtroopers in armor couldn't run All-Out anyway.

Standard stormtroopers had an effective Running skill of 1D (no dice in Running, so they default to their 2D Dexterity, minus 1D from the armor). Even under the best of conditions (Very Easy terrain), the runner still has to beat a 6 (the lowest Difficulty number in the Easy bracket) to move that fast. Even assuming the corridors in the Death Star count as Very Easy terrain (a reasonable assumption, IMO), a WEG-stat stormtrooper has only a 1-in-6 chance of successfully running at All-Out, and a 5-in-6 chance of suffering a Movement Mishap.

Bumping the Stormtrooper's Dexterity to 3D only helps if the GM is feeling generous and doesn't require all Easy Difficulty rolls to beat a 10. A 2D Running skill roll in RAW stormtrooper armor (3D Dexterity, minus 1D for the armor) will only beat the TN 1 time in 6, depending on the whims of the dice gods.

Frankly, I think it would've been simpler to leave the Dexterity penalty from the RAW...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with the way its written here: it's just one way to do it. I would tend to apply a penalty only to skills that require mobility rather than to blaster, though. Shooting in armor isnt harder than shooting without it (especially if you learned to shoot in the military, like a stormtrooper, where shooting training ONLY happens in armor). I would set the penalty to dodge and running, climbing and jumping and swimming.

But the OP does articulate the reasons for the penalties.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I don't have a problem with the way its written here: it's just one way to do it.

But giving everything its own special rule makes it harder to judge relative value. It's a lot easier to compare Stormtrooper armor (+2D/1D vs damage, -1D to Dexterity) with Boba Fett's armor (+4D/3D vs damage, no Dexterity penalty) when they both use the same basic armor protection / penalty rules. Giving everything its own special rule is what D&D did, and the result is a system that requires a lot of study to understand.

Quote:
I would tend to apply a penalty only to skills that require mobility rather than to blaster, though. Shooting in armor isnt harder than shooting without it (especially if you learned to shoot in the military, like a stormtrooper, where shooting training ONLY happens in armor). I would set the penalty to dodge and running, climbing and jumping and swimming.

I defer to your personal experience, but would you consider the armor you've used to be more akin to an armored vest with no Dexterity penalty or a full body armor suit?

I agree with you as far as penalizing movement skills, and I'd also suggest penalizing Stamina, to represent the weight of lugging the armor around. Put simply, the armor penalty would apply to Dexterity and Strength skills, but still provide a bonus to the Strength attribute for Damage purposes.

Quote:
But the OP does articulate the reasons for the penalties.

Yes, and it's an innovative approach. It's just that, upon reflection, I don't feel the problem warrants an unconventional solution.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri May 12, 2017 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

But giving everything its own special rule makes it harder to judge relative value. It's a lot easier to compare Stormtrooper armor (+2D/1D vs damage, -1D to Dexterity) with Boba Fett's armor (+4D/3D vs damage, no Dexterity penalty) when they both use the same basic armor protection / penalty rules. Giving everything its own special rule is what D&D did, and the result is a system that requires a lot of study to understand.

I defer to your personal experience, but would you consider the armor you've used to be more akin to an armored vest with no Dexterity penalty or a full body armor suit?

I agree with you as far as penalizing movement skills, and I'd also suggest penalizing Stamina, as well, to represent the weight of lugging the armor around. Put simply, the armor penalty would apply to Dexterity and Strength skills, but providing a bonus to the Strength attribute for Damage purposes.



Hmm... yeah, I see what you're saying about the consistency. Its not something that bothers me, though (I've come to prefer lots of specifics and what I call "mechanical identity" when it comes to characters--the idea that each character plays differently and feels different to play; it is a difficult balance to achieve, though, while trying not to deviate too far from established mechanics, and your point illustrates that fact).

Concerning the difficulty of shooting in armor, I am certain others will have their own perspective. For example, for a beginning shooter, shooting with and without armor, there will be a difference in the ability to hit a target under stress (it was easier for me as a beginner to shoot without the armor, but I believe that is largely due to the way that I learn, which is not very compatible with the way that the military teaches). However, once I intellectually understood what was going on it was only a matter of taking the armor into account and modifying my technique. Then it was fine. It's kind of like shooting with the off-hand: play around with a few different methods for holding the weapon and aligning the sights/optic and then the awkwardness is gone.

Basically, I'd say it comes down to a short period of familiarization and experimentation. YMMV.

I was thinking that a full suit of armor would certainly encumber a LOT more than my vest upper body armor: I noticed that the weight (probably about 50-ish pounds or so after accounting for ammo and other kit) is negligible for short burst of movement that primarily rely on my legs, OR for low-intensity movements (as far as fatigue is concerned). But, say, a 400m dash would definitely suffer greatly, and that is probably where I'd say that the movement penalty would start to have a measurable in-game effect (below that, it's probably too small a difference to measure in D6 terms, but could be handled with the narrative, if necessary).

I was going to say something to that effect in the previous post, but I considered the difference in the legs and realized that that would be a major factor in contributing to movement constrictions.

I thought about penalizing stamina, but my take would be that encumbrance would be split between the characters full lifting skill and his full stamina: lifting will determine the amount and duration that he can lift/carry before penalties set in. Stamina will determine how far (or how quickly) he can move with all the stuff on (more stuff = higher difficulty). That is my best interpretation of RAW, just FYI.

If I were to go with a stamina penalty, then I'd never call for a stamina roll to check for fatigue imposed by the armor: the armor would just make everything else harder to endure (make sense? I assume that's what you were thinking, too).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Basically, I'd say it comes down to a short period of familiarization and experimentation. YMMV.

I'm thinking a special rule allowing characters (PCs and NPCs) to purchase armor familiarity with a one-time CP cost equal to the degree of Dex penalty. The cost would start at 1 CP per pip of armor familiarity, and then double for each additional step (so a character wearing armor that inflicts a 2D Dex penalty would pay 4 CP per pip, a 3D Dex would pay 6 CP per pip, and so on, assuming someone can find armor that cumbersome), along with the appropriate amount of training time (constantly wearing the armor, or performing exercises while wearing it, etc). The armor familiarity would offer no other benefit than cancelling out the Dex penalty (I'd have to think about the Strength penalties, though).

Quote:
I was thinking that a full suit of armor would certainly encumber a LOT more than my vest upper body armor: I noticed that the weight (probably about 50-ish pounds or so after accounting for ammo and other kit) is negligible for short burst of movement that primarily rely on my legs, OR for low-intensity movements (as far as fatigue is concerned). But, say, a 400m dash would definitely suffer greatly, and that is probably where I'd say that the movement penalty would start to have a measurable in-game effect (below that, it's probably too small a difference to measure in D6 terms, but could be handled with the narrative, if necessary).

There's also the distinct possibility that armor materials and design in a sci-fi universe has cut the weight quite a bit...

Quote:
If I were to go with a stamina penalty, then I'd never call for a stamina roll to check for fatigue imposed by the armor: the armor would just make everything else harder to endure (make sense? I assume that's what you were thinking, too).

I was mostly thinking in terms of where we already use Stamina. In the Movement rules, there are Stamina checks for Long Distance Movement. Putting a -1D penalty to the Stamina rolls for that and other conditions (such as extended battles and such) seems appropriate, and allows the armor check to be tacked onto an existing rule, rather than requiring a completely new rule. YMMV.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning the dex penalty buy-off, I think you'd need to base it on the style of the campaign, if the intent is game balance. How much does it really matter in that particular group/setting/story?

The cost you propose feels steep to me, unless we assume that it is the ONLY house rule in effect (in which case, it feels appropriate since it alters a major balancing mechanic in RAW).l

OTOH, if "lesser" armor provided more worthwhile protection, I think it becomes balanced again: if chest armor provided better protection to the vital areas (say 2D/1D with a -1 or -2 pips to maneuverability) AND you required randomized hit locations (unless calling a shot at some kind of penalty) AND you ruled that a hit in a non vital area could only wound (or, to incapacitate, a higher than normal roll would be required, AND mortally wounded was the worst you could get for a shot in the arm/leg, etc), then we might have something a bit more "realistic."

Real world body armor is capable of out right stopping (totally defeating) shots from high velocity "full power" rounds (30-06, 300 win mag, etc) which I'd consider analogous to a "heavy" blaster rifle. Enough hits in atight group will eventually break through, though. So basically, the damage roll ends up representing the chances that theshot imacted a spot not protected by the armor or a weak spot in the armor (or is just so powerful that the armor counts for nothing).

Meh... I gone way off track at this point so I'll snip it here.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Concerning the dex penalty buy-off, I think you'd need to base it on the style of the campaign, if the intent is game balance. How much does it really matter in that particular group/setting/story?

The cost you propose feels steep to me, unless we assume that it is the ONLY house rule in effect (in which case, it feels appropriate since it alters a major balancing mechanic in RAW).

I only bring it up because in The Far Orbit Project, on page 132, there are stats for "hardened veteran" stormtroopers, who are specifically noted as not suffering the standard Dexterity penalty for their armor. In addition to higher than standard stats, they also have 10 CP (rather than the 0-5 listed for the standard stormie), so it seemed to me a reasonable assumption that they had earned enough CP to somehow "train up" to the point where they were so used to their armor that it didn't affect them. YMMV.

Quote:
OTOH, if "lesser" armor provided more worthwhile protection, I think it becomes balanced again: if chest armor provided better protection to the vital areas (say 2D/1D with a -1 or -2 pips to maneuverability) AND you required randomized hit locations (unless calling a shot at some kind of penalty) AND you ruled that a hit in a non vital area could only wound (or, to incapacitate, a higher than normal roll would be required, AND mortally wounded was the worst you could get for a shot in the arm/leg, etc), then we might have something a bit more "realistic."

Interesting. I'd like to hear some more about this...

Quote:
Real world body armor is capable of out right stopping (totally defeating) shots from high velocity "full power" rounds (30-06, 300 win mag, etc) which I'd consider analogous to a "heavy" blaster rifle. Enough hits in a tight group will eventually break through, though. So basically, the damage roll ends up representing the chances that the shot impacted a spot not protected by the armor or a weak spot in the armor (or is just so powerful that the armor counts for nothing).

There are rules for armor being weakened by damage if the character wearing it is wounded. Is that conceptually close enough to what you are saying?
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll post in more detail when I get to a computer, but, I feel that tracking armor degradation is too much of a pain to be worthwhile. However, combined fire or a rapid series of shots grouped in a tight area will "do enough damage" (high enough die code) to break through THAT SPOT on the armor. Your own auto-fire dice represents this idea nicely, IMO.

I see what you mean about the hardened veterans. I've seen a similar thing in some stat blocks but the opposite: a character's skill will be indicated as having diminished due to lack of use, even though there are no rules given for how to implement such an effect.
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I feel that tracking armor degradation is too much of a pain to be worthwhile.

Agreed. Not using a hit point system is arguably one of WEG's smarter moves in this system.

Quote:
However, combined fire or a rapid series of shots grouped in a tight area will "do enough damage" (high enough die code) to break through THAT SPOT on the armor. Your own auto-fire dice represents this idea nicely, IMO.

Excellent. One less house rule to worry about.

Quote:
I see what you mean about the hardened veterans. I've seen a similar thing in some stat blocks but the opposite: a character's skill will be indicated as having diminished due to lack of use, even though there are no rules given for how to implement such an effect.

It seemed mostly to be applicable to major NPCs who had gotten old or out of practice; running into penalties like that may take years or even decades of disuse for skill level to start dropping off. Of course, I could be wrong. Is there a place for a rule like that, or would it just be something that happens "off-camera", with the PCs practicing their various skills between missions?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, gosh.. I dont know. As I recall this issue came up a while back. If there is anything I am an "expert" in, it would be drawing. If I had to guess,I'd estimate my real-world skill level to be in the 7D - 8D range.

What I can tell you is that after litterally years of no practice, a week or so of "refreshing" brings the skill back to a pretty high level. I think that when a person has a "break through" in a skill (achieves a new "level" of ability) he also raises the floor to which that skill can fall. In other words, the fundamentals never go away, even if they do get rusty: a little grease on the cogs gets thing working just fine again.

I might say that for every month/year/decade/or whatever, you take x penalty to the skill. And for 1 CP and a certain amount oftime, you can remove one increment of the penalty (1 CP per week to get rid of 1D or 1pip or whatever feels right to you).

Just a raw idea off the top.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Oh, gosh.. I dont know. As I recall this issue came up a while back.


Here?

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6061&highlight=
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, that's not the thread I was thinking of...

I remember the discussion actually including some dialogue about how difficult it would be to get a skill back.

My contribution was based on my own loss of parishable skills and the recovery thereof over an amount of time that was surprisingly small compared to the amount of time those skills had been dormant.
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