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Balanced Race stats
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evilnerf
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Balanced Race stats Reply with quote

So looking at REUP, I noticed that there was a lot of races that were extra weak or extra strong compared to others. Rather then go through and rework racial abilities, I decided a more elegant solution was to use Racial Attribute dice by giving weak races a bump and string races a small handicap,

Here is what I came up with, anything not on this list is as presented in REUP
Anzati: 11D
Aqualish: 13D
Barabel: 11D
Bith: 13D
Bothan 13D
Cathar: 13D
Cerean: 13D
Defel: 11D
Devaronian 13D
Dug: 13D
Duro: 11D
Falleen: 11D
Gamorrean: 12D
Geonosian Worker: 12D
Humans:13D
Hutt: 12D
Ithorian: 13D
Kaminoan 13D
Kel Dor: 13D
Mon Calamari: 13D
Nautolan: 13D
Quarren: 13D
Rodian 13D
Sullustan: 13D
Talz: 13D
Umbaran 13D
Verpine: 11D
Weequay: 13D
Wookiee: 11D
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But as far as typical or average stats, not all species are evolved equally. Species and NPCs do not need to be balanced to each other, only PCs do.

I think a much simpler solution for PC game balance is to just toss the 'species typical attribute dice total +6D' rule for PCs. Just make all PCs of any species have exactly 18D in attributes, no more, no less. That way species can continue to be unequal like they should be and PCs can be balanced like they should be.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wookiees are just stronger than Humans, period.
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evilnerf
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
But as far as typical or average stats, not all species are evolved equally. Species and NPCs do not need to be balanced to each other, only PCs do.

I think a much simpler solution for PC game balance is to just toss the 'species typical attribute dice total +6D' rule for PCs. Just make all PCs of any species have exactly 18D in attributes, no more, no less. That way species can continue to be unequal like they should be and PCs can be balanced like they should be.


Whether they evolve equally or not is irrelevant since racial attribute dice is purely a gameplay construct and besides, debating the scientific accuracy of this game about space wizards is laughable. It's not even based on existing lore. Why are Nautolans just generally worse then humans and Anzati just generally better then literally everyone?

My goal here is not to make all races equal either. Wookiees are still strong. They just aren't now super strong but have one less dice to play with relative to Humans or Bothans who lack the super strength.

There rules aren't meant for NPCs. If you want to start your big mean boss Gamorrean extra awesome, you can still plop more dice on there and make him better, or make your street rat human have 2s in all attributes,

These are meant to make starting players more on par at the start, this is not some revolutionary idea in game design. Most systems do this. Strengths and weaknesses,
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wookiees are super strong.



Also, one thing that is nifty about WEG's D6 rule set is that a character's attributes aren't static. They're a range. A character with STR 1D has an effective STR of 1-6. STR 2D has a STR of 2-12, which means that a character with a 1D STR can easily have a better rating on a roll than a character with 2D STR.

Therefore, I don't think balancing is really needed.

You should play your game for your maximum enjoyment, of course. But, I disagree with the need to balance racial attributes.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

evilnerf wrote:
Whill wrote:
But as far as typical or average stats, not all species are evolved equally. Species and NPCs do not need to be balanced to each other, only PCs do.

I think a much simpler solution for PC game balance is to just toss the 'species typical attribute dice total +6D' rule for PCs. Just make all PCs of any species have exactly 18D in attributes, no more, no less. That way species can continue to be unequal like they should be and PCs can be balanced like they should be.

Whether they evolve equally or not is irrelevant since racial attribute dice is purely a gameplay construct and besides, debating the scientific accuracy of this game about space wizards is laughable. It's not even based on existing lore. Why are Nautolans just generally worse then humans and Anzati just generally better then literally everyone?

My goal here is not to make all races equal either. Wookiees are still strong. They just aren't now super strong but have one less dice to play with relative to Humans or Bothans who lack the super strength.

There rules aren't meant for NPCs. If you want to start your big mean boss Gamorrean extra awesome, you can still plop more dice on there and make him better, or make your street rat human have 2s in all attributes,

These are meant to make starting players more on par at the start, this is not some revolutionary idea in game design. Most systems do this. Strengths and weaknesses,

No one was debating the scientific accuracy of the this game but I'm glad you got a laugh out of thinking so.

I see I had misunderstood your OP because I didn't read it closely enough. I now realize that by the word "string" you really meant "strong". When I saw all the typical total attribute dice and the word weak, I was not thinking about the one attribute Strength. I thought you meant overall low attribute species. Now I think I understand your premise to be that Strength is the most important attribute for balance concerns - Low Strength species should get an overall attribute boost, and high Strength species should get an overall attribute reduction. Please completely disregard my previous post.

You may be onto something in that PC Strength is key to balance. In my system where every PC of any species has exactly 18D of attributes, higher Strength only affects PCs by reducing the total dice available for other attributes. But if Strength is more valuable than the other attributes, then high Strength species PCs may have an advantage over lower Strength characters that is not addressed by RAW or my system.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but in this line of thinking if any attribute gives PCs a greater advantage in my game I would think it would be Dexterity. I emphasize to players that not getting hit by attacks in the first place is better than resisting more damage with Strength. So Dodge (and Blaster) tend to be important to some extent for all characters.

The very premise of the game is that the six attributes are equally valued. Like all game balance concerns, how true that is in play depends at least partially on the GM. For example, the common "dump stat" of Knowledge is important in my game because I make it important. All these years I've worked to make the attributes fairly equal in value by adventure design, so I'll continue sticking the game's premise and not value Strength, Dexterity or any other attribute more than the others. But of course, to each GM his own. I do applaud that you are even concerned with PC game balance, since it seems that there are a fair share of GMs who aren't.

You've made it clear your proposed system only applies to PCs. A problem I see with it is that weaker PCs of a strong species are penalized the same as stronger members are. What if a player wants to play a Wookiee with only 3D Strength? That's well under human max but the PC would still have 1D less in attributes because his species is stronger. If you are devoted to your premise that Strength is more valuable for PCs than the other attributes, might I suggest an alternative that instead of putting the fix on the whole species typical dice based on species max and min Strength values, you implement something at the actual PC level based on individual PC Strength. For example, while each species still has their respective Strength attribute dice range, for each pip a PC has above 4D Strength, it costs two pips from the total 18D (or whatever PC total attribute die value it is for that species), and then for each pip a PC has under 3D Strength, the PC gets an extra pip to be allocated to other attributes. Here's a chart just to better visualize:

PC
STR . (Cost)

2D ... (1D)
2D+1 (1D+2)
2D+2 (2D+1)
3D ... (3D)
3D+1 (3D+1)
3D+2 (3D+2)
4D ... (4D)
4D+1 (4D+2)
4D+2 (5D+1)
5D ... (6D)
and so on...

Example: Wookiee PCs have an 18D base total attributes. Matt wants to play a Wookiee with 5D Strength which costs 6D to have, so Matt has 12D remaining to allocate to his PC's other five attributes. Sean wants to play a weak Wookiee with the species min 2D+2 in Strength, which costs 2D+1 to have, so Sean has 15D+2 to allocate to his PC's other attributes.

Sean's PC shouldn't be penalized because his PC's species as a whole are so strong. Since your proposal is for the sake of PC game balance, my suggestions values strong and weaker PCs regardless of their species, but has no effect on the rest of their species. Anyway, it's just a friendly suggestion. Use it as is, tweak it, ignore it, whatever works for you. Peace.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a huge proponent of story/plot driven balance. A perfect example of this is LotR: Frodo... really?

Having said that, the value of the Strength attribute is entirely dependent on how often it is required to be rolled and to a certain extent, the lethality of weapons used against the PCs.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Whill already said, though, the game is already balanced. Each character race has the same amount of dice to spread around when the character is generated. That's balance.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
But as far as typical or average stats, not all species are evolved equally. Species and NPCs do not need to be balanced to each other, only PCs do.

I think a much simpler solution for PC game balance is to just toss the 'species typical attribute dice total +6D' rule for PCs. Just make all PCs of any species have exactly 18D in attributes, no more, no less. That way species can continue to be unequal like they should be and PCs can be balanced like they should be.


I do use this rule as I dislike that some races have 17D and others 18D. Btw if I counted correctly, a Sullustan Trader template has only 17D while Sullustan race is listed as having 18D. Knowing WEG, this is no surprise. 😁
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Whill's suggestion.

However, high STR isn't the only problematic races.

Consider a Verpine. It can have up to 5D in starting TEC, and gets a +2D TEC bonus on all TEC rolls. So for it, if allowed to, it only makes sense to start advancing Advanced TEC skills rather than the base. It is cheaper for it in strict Character points, and there is no downside to roll TEC + Advanced skill rather than the basic skill in a basic skill roll situation.

So they have low STR. But they can build Power Armor. From the get-go. So ... low STR isn't that bad.

Or, consider a Yaka. Starts out with a max of 5D in TEC. And advances all KNO and TEC skills at half cost. Doesn't start out unbalanced, but the double bang for the buck means that when the other player characters have spent 25 points, the Yaka might have spent the equivalent of 50 points. (The math is a bit different, but let's go with that as a rule of thumb.)

Or, consider a Pho Ph'eahian. Four arms, high TEC, Human STR range, Human DEX range, one free action. No trouble for a Pho Ph'eahian to start out with 6D Blaster (7D Blaster: Blaster Pistol), enough in Blaster Repair to modify a 5D damage blaster (carbine, rifle, heavy blaster pistol) to 6D or so in damage, and they can take an extra shot with no multiple action penalty every round.

Or, consider Noghri. Standard 16D in Attribute dice. Going by the +6D PC rule, that means 22D in Attribute dice. That won't fly. Going by Whill's suggested 18D Attribute dice for PCs rule, a PC Noghri just isn't that much awesomer than a standard Noghri, because all Noghri are THIS close to being a PC anyways. Furthermore, the Noghri have the Martial Arts special skill, which is insane.

Or, consider Bitthævrians. STR 4D+2, but +1D+2 in Brawling damage. Which is a max of 6D+1. Pop a Force point, double the STR to 8D+4, add the Brawling damage to 9D+6, exchange +6 to +2D, and you're at 11D in damage. Not too shabby considering a Wookiee's 12D damage under similar circumstances (or possibly slightly more if they're a dishonorable Wookiee and use their claws in brawling combat).

Or Barabels. Sure, their max STR is 5D, but their natural body armor gives 'em +2D / +1D. And, strictly speaking, there's nothing that says they can't use armor - not anything in RAW the way I remember it (I'll probably be corrected if I'm wrong here). So that means it's fairly easy to get another +2D / +1D with not much more than a -1D DEX. So that's 9D vs Physical, 7D vs Energy. Pop a Force point, and you can walk up to an E-web nest while taking fire, and then rip the heads of whatever you find there - and that's only 8D damage vs 12D resist.

Or the Meris. Max 6D in DEX, and can advance Medicine - an Advanced skill - for half cost (can choose from an array of skills, but Medicine is the most blatantly abusable in my opnion), and a +2D bonus to Sneak. 'nuff said. The Teltiors aren't too shabby either - 5D+2 DEX, advance Con at half cost (can choose from an array of skills, but Con is the most easily abused in my opinion), and they're sneaky too.

Just off the top of my head, the most egregious ways to abusively build a PC that I could think of (and I'm not talking about hammering in a GPU in a desktop PC with a wooden club either).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no reason at all for the races to be in any way balanced, as that would be "unnatural"
Lets compare a fish to an elephant, or a human to a spider....that is the galaxy of species in Star Wars.

Now where some races may seem very overpowered, they usually have various story factors that either explains this, or gives them a weakness.

Now I am a fan of allowing even high to very high powered races and PCs in my
games.

This being said, I am working on making humans more diverse, even to 10D-14D level of stats, depending on culture and homeworld evolution.
Most will be solved by using various skill bonuses and other story factors.


Like allowing Piloting Bonuses to Corellians
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
As Whill already said, though, the game is already balanced. Each character race has the same amount of dice to spread around when the character is generated. That's balance.


But if race 1 starts with 14d, while race 2 starts with only 11d+2, though they still both get 6d more for attributes to allocate, that's still not being balanced out.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
As Whill already said, though, the game is already balanced. Each character race has the same amount of dice to spread around when the character is generated. That's balance.


But if race 1 starts with 14d, while race 2 starts with only 11d+2, though they still both get 6d more for attributes to allocate, that's still not being balanced out.


I would argue it COULD.

The lower D races here could and usually do have some story factors that either in a huge way overcomes this, like skill bonuses, permanent bonuses and special abilities.

Also there are story reasons, for some, and yes given the huge size of the galaxy anything from 0D to 100D is actually plausable.

As for Player Characters, the slight difference in attribute D is a RP hook IMO
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

I would argue it COULD.

The lower D races here could and usually do have some story factors that either in a huge way overcomes this, like skill bonuses, permanent bonuses and special abilities.


Could is the big kicker. Most of those "Story factors" i've rarely seen ever get used, just like a lot of RP restrictions on characters in ADND often get overlooked.
I mean, can say the "story factor of being rich, pcs should be given a 2,000 credit bonus" really make up for Annoids only getting 8d in starting attributes vice 12? Now the 'additional 6d skill dice they get specifically for Tech skills, may.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

I would argue it COULD.

The lower D races here could and usually do have some story factors that either in a huge way overcomes this, like skill bonuses, permanent bonuses and special abilities.


Could is the big kicker. Most of those "Story factors" i've rarely seen ever get used, just like a lot of RP restrictions on characters in ADND often get overlooked.
I mean, can say the "story factor of being rich, pcs should be given a 2,000 credit bonus" really make up for Annoids only getting 8d in starting attributes vice 12? Now the 'additional 6d skill dice they get specifically for Tech skills, may.


Rich species, or long lived or something like this is not a good trade off in regards to 8D vs 12D , BUT this depends much on player and GM.


I allow withing reason even players (at a cp cost) so even pick up special abilities and skills.
Like the corellian pilot bonus.
This goes to most species within reason.
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