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Of Rebels and Dark Side Points
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Of Rebels and Dark Side Points Reply with quote

I was wondering what you guys thought of the WEG game rules and the darker tone set with the new movies.

In the novelization of Rogue One, Saw Gerrera is said to have bound a man and placed him in an air speeder, then, with his hands still tied behind his back (as if it mattered at all), dropped the dude from a height right next to the Imperial Barracks. The man was a traitor Gerrera found among his men.

Then, there's Cassian Andor, a man haunted by the things he's done in the name of the Rebellion. We see him murder an informant by shooting him in the back when Andor realizes that the man can't physically escape the on-coming stormtroopers.



Would you give these characters, based on their actions, a Dark Side Point in your game?

In the OT, it is understood that the good guys are GOOD and the evil Empire guys are BAD. The OT has a bit more of a black & white, good vs. evil vibe to it, where all bad guys are bad and all good guys are good.

These new movies show a Star Wars universe that has grown up a little bit and become more gray. The shows have a little more edge to them.

Does Cassian deserve a Dark Side Point because he murdered his informant in cold blood?

Hell, maybe the reason SAW is going mad is because he has too many Dark Side points, and they are screwing with his head.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the RO novelization, we see Cassian rationalize shooting Tivik in the back. He justifies it by saying to himself that Tivik would have broken under interrogation, and that if Cassian had tried to help Tivik escape, he would have been caught as well and no one would have gotten the news about a planet killer to the Rebellion. And the horrible (or fortunate, from a certain point of view,) thing about this is that Cassian is absolutely right about all this but it doesn't make him feel better at all.

But to answer your question, yes, Cassian would definitely get a DSP for this. Cassian may have had a good reason to keep Tivik from talking, but he still murdered a man in cold blood. If doing the wrong thing for the right reason doesn't merit getting a DSP, then nothing does.

In general, I see the SWU introducing elements of gray into a black-and-white universe as a good thing. It makes for more compelling stories.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its my opinion that pop culture is generally used for social engineering, and that the new tone of these movies is part of that. In other words, the intent is to move society from the "traditional" mentality of wholesomeness and morality to a poimt where what was once bad is now acceptable and what was once good is now "square" or oppressive (the prequel trilogy even begins to cross this threshhold: the parallels portrayed between Mace Windu and Palpatine are merely one example: "he is/was too dangerous to be left alive).

To the discerning adult, these things can be attriuted to difficult decisions, but to the younger kids watching, it starts to blur the lines, and I FEEL as though it is on purpose for the reasons given above. This is pervasive in much more than just SW. Superman, for example has been redefined, and the Avengers as well. Deadlool, Fast and Furious... the list goes on.

Having said all that, yes: I would give DSPs for all of the things you mentioned. Otherwise,might as well just get rid of the dark side altogether and just treat theforce like "magic."
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, Namaan, "social engineering" like that has been going on since the beginning of civilization. It's just a function of culture that any and all cultures are going to change and evolve their social mores.

Slavery used to be acceptable; now it's not.

Stigmatizing gay people just because they're gay used to be acceptable; now it's not.

Insisting that a woman could never be equal in worth to a man used to be acceptable; now it's not.

Mandating that only white male landowners should be able to vote in American elections used to be acceptable; now it's not.

All of these things have changed American culture for the better, and that can't be denied by any rational person. Anyone who says that people shouldn't be equal in worth under the law doesn't and can't understand basic American values.

But to get this thread back on topic, yeah, I'm curious to see what Rebels does in Season 4 to show Saw Guerea's (I never know how to spell his last name) decent into the extremist we see in Rogue One.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
But to get this thread back on topic, yeah, I'm curious to see what Rebels does in Season 4 to show Saw Guerea's (I never know how to spell his last name) decent into the extremist we see in Rogue One.


I'm thinking/hoping that will be fleshed out in Rebel Rising.





Can there be Dark Side characters that are not in league with the Sith or the Empire? I think the answer to that is, "Yes."

On the other hand, a character cannot get a Dark Side Point unless he uses a Force Point (in 1E). So, under that rule, Cassian would not get a DSP unless he used a FP to fire those shots to murder his informant.



As I mention above, Saw may be going crazy because of the number of DSPs he has. Didn't I read somewhere that cybernetics can lead to DSPs?

And, Cassian's choice to follow Jyn, breaking all the rules for something he believes in and feels right to him, could be part of his Atonment in getting rid of a DSP.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Of Rebels and Dark Side Points Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Would you give these characters, based on their actions, a Dark Side Point in your game?


Being in the RAW, technically non-force sensitives only gain a DSP when they do evil WHILE spending a force point, if going strictly by the book, no.
HOWEVER both situations IMO would warrant those 2 characters having a dsp or three..

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Does Cassian deserve a Dark Side Point because he murdered his informant in cold blood?


IMO hell yes.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Hell, maybe the reason SAW is going mad is because he has too many Dark Side points, and they are screwing with his head.


It also might explain why he is so extremist..

Sutehp wrote:
In the RO novelization, we see Cassian rationalize shooting Tivik in the back. He justifies it by saying to himself that Tivik would have broken under interrogation, and that if Cassian had tried to help Tivik escape, he would have been caught as well and no one would have gotten the news about a planet killer to the Rebellion. And the horrible (or fortunate, from a certain point of view,) thing about this is that Cassian is absolutely right about all this but it doesn't make him feel better at all.


That is true, but the ends justifies the means imo is NOT what light siders do.. That's more darksiders imo.

Quote:
And, Cassian's choice to follow Jyn, breaking all the rules for something he believes in and feels right to him, could be part of his Atonment in getting rid of a DSP.


Good point. Plus his refusal to follow orders to kill Jyn's father when he had him in his crosshairs might also be him trying to atone.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
In the novelization of Rogue One, Saw Gerrera is said to have bound a man and placed him in an air speeder, then, with his hands still tied behind his back (as if it mattered at all), dropped the dude from a height right next to the Imperial Barracks. The man was a traitor Gerrera found among his men.
There is no mention that the drop was from high up.
Quote:
She had seen [Saw Gerrera] spill blood over worse offenses than
her own, seen him bind and blindfold a would-be deserter and toss
him from an airspeeder in front of an Imperial barracks.


Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Would you give these characters, based on their actions, a Dark Side Point in your game?
Unless the character actually went splat when dropped outside the Imperial barracks, no. But murdering your contact because leaving him alive would be inconvenient and dangerous? Sure. Why not?

WEG got this right in Second Edition. There we see characters, including Rebels, who aren’t good guys and who have DSPs. One example off the top of my head is Melodia Fharn, the grandmotherly Rebel leader on Derilyn in the Elrood sector section of the Planets Collection.
Quote:
On the outside, Melodia projects the image of a sweet, grandmotherly old lady.
Indeed, she is rather soft-spoken and is reluctant to speak up or use her influence
to force unpopular agendas. But when she is on duty, the fires of independence burn
in her eyes and she is transformed into a cool commando who has the advantage of
her years of wisdom. She is also a good deal more bloodthirsty than most would
suspect -

"Yes, dears, I had to ventilate that stormtrooper's head before he got a bead on you. Now,
that nasty man's gone, so rest a spell and have a nice cup of tea."

She has 3 DSPs. I always assumed she kept a jar of poison-laced tea just in case the Imperials came calling at her house, sent kids off to bomb barracks and such, and ordered the torture of prisoners.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
On the other hand, a character cannot get a Dark Side Point unless he uses a Force Point (in 1E). So, under that rule, Cassian would not get a DSP unless he used a FP to fire those shots to murder his informant.
This is one of the things 1E got wrong that was fixed in later editions.

Cassian, for example, definitely seems Force Sensitive when you read the novelization. He has a sense of Jyn's need and drive.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
In the novelization of Rogue One, Saw Gerrera is said to have bound a man and placed him in an air speeder, then, with his hands still tied behind his back (as if it mattered at all), dropped the dude from a height right next to the Imperial Barracks. The man was a traitor Gerrera found among his men.
There is no mention that the drop was from high up.
Quote:
She had seen [Saw Gerrera] spill blood over worse offenses than
her own, seen him bind and blindfold a would-be deserter and toss
him from an airspeeder in front of an Imperial barracks.


It's an airspeeder, not a landspeeder.




Quote:
WEG got this right in Second Edition. There we see characters, including Rebels, who aren’t good guys and who have DSPs. One example off the top of my head is Melodia Fharn, the grandmotherly Rebel leader on Derilyn in the Elrood sector section of the Planets Collection.
Quote:
On the outside, Melodia projects the image of a sweet, grandmotherly old lady.
Indeed, she is rather soft-spoken and is reluctant to speak up or use her influence
to force unpopular agendas. But when she is on duty, the fires of independence burn
in her eyes and she is transformed into a cool commando who has the advantage of
her years of wisdom. She is also a good deal more bloodthirsty than most would
suspect -

"Yes, dears, I had to ventilate that stormtrooper's head before he got a bead on you. Now,
that nasty man's gone, so rest a spell and have a nice cup of tea."

She has 3 DSPs. I always assumed she kept a jar of poison-laced tea just in case the Imperials came calling at her house, sent kids off to bomb barracks and such, and ordered the torture of prisoners.


That's pretty cool.





Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
On the other hand, a character cannot get a Dark Side Point unless he uses a Force Point (in 1E). So, under that rule, Cassian would not get a DSP unless he used a FP to fire those shots to murder his informant.
This is one of the things 1E got wrong that was fixed in later editions.

Cassian, for example, definitely seems Force Sensitive when you read the novelization. He has a sense of Jyn's need and drive.[/quote]

I don't think 1E is wrong at all. It's just a different way of applying the rules.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It's an airspeeder, not a landspeeder.
Not to get too snarky, but I am aware of which word I typed. But in the novel there is no description of the altitude of the airspeeder. Of course you are free to read into what the author wrote that the drop occurred from really high up. I read it that Saw had him dropped off at the barracks so he would be harshly interrogated by the Imperials. But perhaps that is too subtle for Saw. He seems like kind of a straightforward kind of crazy guy.
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
That's pretty cool.
I always liked Melodia Fharn. Her husband was killed in the orbital bombardment and utter destruction of the city of Paran. Her only child, a son, and his wife were resistance members who were killed by the Empire. Then she decided to fight back rather than to allow her orphaned grandchildren to suffer under tyrannical rule.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

I don't think 1E is wrong at all. It's just a different way of applying the rules.


I do as i have seen players try to justify not getting a dsp for most every evil acts they do, 'cause they are not on a FP, so should be free and clear'..

Like one guy who after being stranded on a desert planet, got to work with imperials to repair THEIR ship, then his teams.. under a truce (as both were jumped by pirates/slavers), and wanted to "after all was said and done" have the imperial supply ship, hyperspace right into a sun"..
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I do as i have seen players try to justify not getting a dsp for most every evil acts they do, 'cause they are not on a FP, so should be free and clear'..


Which is a reason I think a strong GM is needed in games. If he says a DSP is applied, FP use or no, then a DSP is applied in his universe.

I'm not convinced that 1E actually means that, in all cases, a DSP is only awarded when an FP is used. The wording could mean that one way a DSP can be awarded is if an FP is used for evil.

Someone else already pointed out that other means of getting a DSP are mentioned in the game--as with using certain Force Powers in a certain way.

Certainly, if a character rapes or murders an NPC in cold blood that the GM is within his rights to award a DSP to the offending character.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1E rules are written from the perspective that the players are running heroes who are like Luke, Han, Chewie, and Leia. None of them are the sorts of characters one would expect would rape or murder a person. In the movie Han shoots Greedo only after its clear that Greedo is a threat.

I think the expected response in 1E to a character who does stuff like that isn't "You get a DSP." Its "WTF? We are playing Star Wars. You are supposed to be a good guy hero. Good guys don't do stuff like that. Either (a) come up with a different action, (b) make up a new character who won't act like that, or (c) don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on your way out.

2E and 2E R&E add some nuance, grayness, and even blackness and we start to see things published like Imperial PC templates, Black Sun campaigns, and Pirates & Privateers.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Its "WTF? We are playing Star Wars. You are supposed to be a good guy hero. Good guys don't do stuff like that. Either (a) come up with a different action, (b) make up a new character who won't act like that, or (c) don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on your way out.


I tend to allow my players to play however they want. They don't have to feel railroaded into playing something I think that they should play.

As GM, I'm there to provide consequences.

I believe in GM as god, but I also believe that player characters have been given free will.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I tend to allow my players to play however they want. They don't have to feel railroaded into playing something I think that they should play.
1E assumes you intend to play a game of heroic space opera Star Wars. The rules are written from that point of view. One can do something else with the rules, but when I run Star Wars I want a different experience than when I run other systems and settings. And I want people to play the game we agreed to play. That's a far cry from railroading.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
1E assumes you intend to play a game of heroic space opera Star Wars. The rules are written from that point of view. One can do something else with the rules, but when I run Star Wars I want a different experience than when I run other systems and settings. And I want people to play the game we agreed to play. That's a far cry from railroading.


I can understand that. But, at the same time, I'm not going to force (heh! he said "force") a player to play the way I think he should play.

I'm going to let him do what he wants, then I'm going to provide consequences should they be called for within the genre of the game.

Star Wars 1E is definitely written to recreate exciting, swashbuckling adventures like those the heroes have in the original trilogy. At the same time, the game is meant for our own individual experiences. The game rules are flexible enough to capture several different flavors of play.

1E is certainly able to deliver a good game based on the new trilogy, even though it can be darker in tone, and the same goes for Rogue One--again darker in tone than the OT.

But, back to the point. I allow players to play however they want. But, they've got to face the consequences of their actions. Trust me, the players may not like those consequences, but I'll run the game fairly. It's never me against them.
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