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House Rule Play Test
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dph wrote:

Perhaps you misunderstood me about Combat/Parry.
I have already combined Melee Combat & Parry and Brawl and Parry (not Melee & Brawl together) for years and it's had a positive impact on my game as outlined previously.
I don't really see a parallel between that and combining Dodge and ranged Attacks though. I think there's a much finer line between blocking with a sword and hitting with a sword than firing a blaster and dodging out the way.

Thanks for your input all, keep it coming.


No problem. Always glad to give critiques.. But on the parry-attack combining, if the idea is that someone learning to fight learns both sides (offense/defense) then why wouldn't that also apply to ranged combat?

Bren wrote:
* One exception is if the lightsaber skill is used for both attacks and parries. In that case it makes sense to treat a sword, vibroaxe, or forcepike the same as a lightsaber. It shouldn't be easier to learn how to swing a lightsaber. (By easier I mean cost fewer character points and yes I am ignoring the ease or the difficulty of finding a trainer.)


I've never understood that dichotomy either.. Why is the lightsaber the ONLY weapon in the game where learning the skill gives you both offense/defense..

MrNexx wrote:
If you combine Brawling and Brawling Parry, what attribute does it key off of? Do you have a situation where Dex builds all use Melee Weapons, and Strength Builds all use things designed to key off unarmed (from Brass Knuckles to Power Fists)?


I'd actually see some melee weapons being Dex while others are str.. Brawling (especially specific styles of fighting) would be similar. Boxing - Str, Judo - Str, Karate/tai-kwon-do - str. Aikido/jujitsu/wu-shu - dex..
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You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!"

For my game, the dodge skill can be used to defend against all incoming missile attacks; blasters, thrown items, javelins, bowcaster bolts, archaic weapons, slug throwers.

I don't have my players have a Dodge blasters skill....and a dodge bowcaster skill...and a dodge thrown items skill...

Similarly I have Brawling be used for both attack and defense in any kind of unarmed combat. I have no brawling parry skill.

I also have Melee be used for all attack and defense rolls involving a hand-held close-combat weapon. I have no melee parry skill.

Of course, it's worth mentioning that my dodge rule is very different than RAW.
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5890&highlight=


Last edited by Dredwulf60 on Wed May 31, 2017 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Grenade!!!!"

"Oh no! We are out in the open, what should we do?"

"In training, we were taught to go prone because thf blast goes upward and out from the ground."

"No way, man! Bad idea! What if ANOTHER one gets tossed in here while we are prone and it lands right on top of us? Im just going to try to clear the 15-foot kill radius with a flat footed jump, and take my chances that any shrapnel will miss, even though the debris can fly up to 300 meters.... as long as I can get 15-feet away, I'm guaranteed to at least survive, even if it means possibly eating through a straw the rest of my life."

*Other guy goes prone and grenade number two lands fight next to him. He grabs it throws it back out.*



Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
"Grenade!!!!"

"Oh no! We are out in the open, what should we do?"

"In training, we were taught..."

BOOOM!!



Cool
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to point out that in real life melee combat, attacing and defending are interconnected. Learning to fight is literally learning how to not get hit while also dealing the maximum possible damage (a boxer's punch, for example, is much harder than the thug's on the street who relies on a high attribute to get things done).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ik__Piaf00

Whereas against bullets, there is no "dodging." The dodge skill is merely a means by which to scale combat to the players' level.

Some will argue that dodge is the act of finding cover. But by the rules, dodge can be used in wide open spaces all day long-its just presumed that everyone with a high dodge skill has "Jedi reflexes."

So, I agree that combining melee skills is not by any stretch of the imagination analogous to combining ranged combat skills.

One caveat: if you want to treat gunfighting as a more wholistic skill, that could work, but it would come down to initiative and alertness (shoot first) rather than quickness and agility ("dodging" bullets).


Last edited by Naaman on Wed May 31, 2017 5:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Naaman wrote:
"Grenade!!!!"

"Oh no! We are out in the open, what should we do?"

"In training, we were taught..."

BOOOM!!



Cool

I knew that was coming. Very Happy
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
Naaman wrote:
"Grenade!!!!"

"Oh no! We are out in the open, what should we do?"

"In training, we were taught..."

BOOOM!!



Cool

I knew that was coming. Very Happy


They, apparently, did not. Wink

As for "You don't dodge gunfire", this is technically true; I tend to view Dodge as "I am making myself more difficult to hit." Without Dodging, you're assuming a proper firing stance and hoping your opponents went to the Stormtrooper Marksmanship School. Dodging, you aren't say "I will step to the left to avoid that blaster bolt coming at me"... you're saying "I am going to dance like a mad monkey in hopes of not being hit, while simultaneously shooting like I'm in a Hong Kong action movie."
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That wotks for me. And then there is the retconned Han Solo head tilt dodge...
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, when I first starting playing the game, I had a real problem with Dodge. I couldn't get my head around it. I was insufferable as a GM in that I made my players describe how they were dodging. Were they skidding flat on the floor? Were they ducking back behind a corner? Kneeling down behind a rock?

But, this lead to all sorts of play issues: Extra movement required for the Dodge. Bogging down play with players saying, "Well, now that I've gone to my knees behind this crate, isn't it providing me cover now?" And, problems just describing all those Dodges in a single round so that the picture it made in our heads was just comical and totally unrealistic.

I finally accepted the rule as it was intended--an abstract way to increase target number and make characters harder to hit.

Now, when I play the game, I rarely describe a successful Dodge as anything other than a missed blaster bolt. I may describe a cool movement now and then, but mostly, it's just the foe not being able to hit his target--for whatever unspecified reason.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

I finally accepted the rule as it was intended--an abstract way to increase target number and make characters harder to hit.

Now, when I play the game, I rarely describe a successful Dodge as anything other than a missed blaster bolt. I may describe a cool movement now and then, but mostly, it's just the foe not being able to hit his target--for whatever unspecified reason.


Same here. I often let players get creative in describing a 'real good' dodge roll, but average ones (or ones where they still got hit on), we generally don't worry about describing it.. Much like if they get a real good SHOT or smack off in melee/ranged combat, i often like to have the player describe his or her hit (ONCE damage has also been resolved).
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dph
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
If you combine Brawling and Brawling Parry, what attribute does it key off of? Do you have a situation where Dex builds all use Melee Weapons, and Strength Builds all use things designed to key off unarmed (from Brass Knuckles to Power Fists)?


Melee under Dex, Brawling under Str.

Essentially I'm following the SWD6 lead which places the 'combat' versions in those respective Attributes already.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

I finally accepted the rule as it was intended--an abstract way to increase target number and make characters harder to hit.

Now, when I play the game, I rarely describe a successful Dodge as anything other than a missed blaster bolt. I may describe a cool movement now and then, but mostly, it's just the foe not being able to hit his target--for whatever unspecified reason.


As an example, my mind drifts to the scene at the beginning of ANH where the droids cross the corridor between the the two factions blasting at each other...at nothing more that a shuffle /roll...and totally avoid being hit.

Good dodge rolls droids!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
As an example, my mind drifts to the scene at the beginning of ANH where the droids cross the corridor between the the two factions blasting at each other...at nothing more that a shuffle /roll...and totally avoid being hit.

Good dodge rolls droids!


I think that way now, but when I first started playing with Dodge, that droid scene didn't represent Dodge rolls. It represented regular at-range attacks.

I didn't see them "dodging" at all.

It took me a while to get with the program.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Yeah, when I first starting playing the game, I had a real problem with Dodge. I couldn't get my head around it. I was insufferable as a GM in that I made my players describe how they were dodging. Were they skidding flat on the floor? Were they ducking back behind a corner? Kneeling down behind a rock?

But, this lead to all sorts of play issues: Extra movement required for the Dodge. Bogging down play with players saying, "Well, now that I've gone to my knees behind this crate, isn't it providing me cover now?" And, problems just describing all those Dodges in a single round so that the picture it made in our heads was just comical and totally unrealistic.

I finally accepted the rule as it was intended--an abstract way to increase target number and make characters harder to hit.

Now, when I play the game, I rarely describe a successful Dodge as anything other than a missed blaster bolt. I may describe a cool movement now and then, but mostly, it's just the foe not being able to hit his target--for whatever unspecified reason.


I tend to describe dodges a bit more cinematically, often offering a future bonus in doing so. You didn't just DODGE, you dived behind a corner while blaster fire raked the wall. You now have cover.

On the downside, it applies to NPCs, too.
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