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"The Dark Side"
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: "The Dark Side" Reply with quote

So, I was listening to Aftermath on the way in (this is going to be a repeated theme for at least the next few days, when the book will be done), and letting my mind wander over "The Dark Side".

Would Dark Side aligned people really call it that? Except perhaps in a Church of Satan sort of way (i.e. not due to literal belief, but because it attracts ire), I can't see most folks going to "The Dark Side", because it has such a negative connotation.

Tempted to plan out a story where the bad guys are devotees of the "True Force", who claim that anger, etc. are parts of the whole, and that the Jedi are the ones who pervert the force.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do in the films.

"The power of the Dark Side." -- Vader.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
They do in the films.

"The power of the Dark Side." -- Vader.


I know, Wajeb. I'm questioning if that would be common, because it seems akin to naming your corporation Evil, Inc.... it's going to draw some stares.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
They do in the films.

"The power of the Dark Side." -- Vader.


I know, Wajeb. I'm questioning if that would be common, because it seems akin to naming your corporation Evil, Inc.... it's going to draw some stares.


Again, I'd turn to the films and say, "No.".

Palpatine, and most of the Sith in history, hide their true selves and even the existence of the Sith religion until they come out into the open when they are in full control.

Vader said the above once the Jedi were extinct and Papa Palpy was secure on the throne.

Cut back to the prequels, and Palpy doesn't make a peep about the Sith.

So, I think not. Your evil corporation would hide the fact that it is evil, even among the employees internally.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell, all the people working for the Empire call themselves Imperials. Considering that the Empire was a democratic society only 20 years prior, most people don't seem to have a problem with any negative connotations associated with a non-democratic dictatorship that took power by force. But then again, COMPNOR was working very hard to brainwash galactic society as a whole into thinking that serving law and order under the Empire was good and wholesome. According to the source you read, COMPNOR was terrifyingly successful at it. People wanted to get close to the Emperor and gain his favor. They had no compunctions at all about stabbing their comrades in the back if it meant greater power for themselves. Palpatine even encouraged petty corruption throughout the Empire if it kept people distracted from his own goals.

In the novelization of Rogue One, as Krennic is musing how to coax Vader to take his side against Tarkin, Krennic is thinking to himself about how Vader belongs to "the long-dead Sith cult." After the Force choke, Krennic realizes that "the power of the Sith is real." So it seems high-ranking Imperial officers have at least heard rumors about Vader belonging to the Sith. As to whether they know about Palpatine belonging to the Sith, I can't say, but if they don't know that the Emperor is a Sith, that makes him even more terrifying: How could a senator from Naboo find a way to make a Sith Lord his underling?

Yeah, Vader isn't too shy about calling himself a Sith Lord and invoking the dark side of the Force, but Palpatine seems a bit more reticient about it, at least when he isn't alone with Vader or Luke. But then again, the Emperor isn't seen very much on screen in the OT, and when he is, he's hardly seen interacting with his subordinates (except Vader) at all.

So to sum up: Vader doesn't seem to have a problem invoking the dark side in front of whoever he likes (especially the conference room scene in ANH), but Palpatine doesn't seem to give a fig about it either way.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their respective personalities are likely a factor. Palpatine spent decades concealing his true identity and abilities, whereas Anakin was all about bulling his way through any situation with brute force.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Their respective personalities are likely a factor. Palpatine spent decades concealing his true identity and abilities, whereas Anakin was all about bulling his way through any situation with brute force.


Also true.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
In the novelization of Rogue One, as Krennic is musing how to coax Vader to take his side against Tarkin, Krennic is thinking to himself about how Vader belongs to "the long-dead Sith cult." After the Force choke, Krennic realizes that "the power of the Sith is real." So it seems high-ranking Imperial officers have at least heard rumors about Vader belonging to the Sith. As to whether they know about Palpatine belonging to the Sith, I can't say, but if they don't know that the Emperor is a Sith, that makes him even more terrifying: How could a senator from Naboo find a way to make a Sith Lord his underling?
My recollection is that in the novel Krennic isn't aware Palpatine is a Sith. He thinks he is just a Senator. That's the argument (if he can do it, I can) that Krennic uses with himself to justify his belief that he can sway Vader to his side.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
In the novelization of Rogue One, as Krennic is musing how to coax Vader to take his side against Tarkin, Krennic is thinking to himself about how Vader belongs to "the long-dead Sith cult." After the Force choke, Krennic realizes that "the power of the Sith is real." So it seems high-ranking Imperial officers have at least heard rumors about Vader belonging to the Sith. As to whether they know about Palpatine belonging to the Sith, I can't say, but if they don't know that the Emperor is a Sith, that makes him even more terrifying: How could a senator from Naboo find a way to make a Sith Lord his underling?
My recollection is that in the novel Krennic isn't aware Palpatine is a Sith. He thinks he is just a Senator. That's the argument (if he can do it, I can) that Krennic uses with himself to justify his belief that he can sway Vader to his side.

Precisely my point. If a high ranking officer like Krennic doesn't know that Palpatine is a Sith, then most Imperial officers don't know it either. (One wonders if even Grand Moff Tarkin, who is one of the few Imperial officers who actually has the Emperor's ear, would know or even care that Palpatine is a Sith.) And if the Imperial military doesn't know, then the average citizen of the Empire surely wouldn't know. CRMcNeill has a point when he says that Palpatine isn't the type to go around cackling "I'm a Sith! I'm a Sith! I'm a Sith!" but then again, he doesn't even need to, since he's powerful enough already.

In Lost Stars, the Imperial main character, Cienna Ree, gets stationed at Endor just before the Battle of Endor and is present when Palpatine arrives at the Second Death Star and she sees him in person for the first time. Keep in mind, she's already met Vader several times and is terrified of him. When she sees Palpatine exit his shuttle on DS2, however, she's absolutely shocked by the aura of malice he projects. Furthermore, there's no mention of any of her comrades reacting the same way she does (and remember, there are hundreds of other Imperial officers present in the hangar bay to serve as the Emperor's honor guard). Which means that the other Imperial officers are either oblivious to Palpatine's aura of malice or, even worse, they do feel it and are completely unbothered by it.

Who needs to point up their Sith status when you have troops who are already that loyal to you?
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Hell, all the people working for the Empire call themselves Imperials. Considering that the Empire was a democratic society only 20 years prior, most people don't seem to have a problem with any negative connotations associated with a non-democratic dictatorship that took power by force. But then again, COMPNOR was working very hard to brainwash galactic society as a whole into thinking that serving law and order under the Empire was good and wholesome. According to the source you read, COMPNOR was terrifyingly successful at it. People wanted to get close to the Emperor and gain his favor. They had no compunctions at all about stabbing their comrades in the back if it meant greater power for themselves. Palpatine even encouraged petty corruption throughout the Empire if it kept people distracted from his own goals.

In the novelization of Rogue One, as Krennic is musing how to coax Vader to take his side against Tarkin, Krennic is thinking to himself about how Vader belongs to "the long-dead Sith cult." After the Force choke, Krennic realizes that "the power of the Sith is real." So it seems high-ranking Imperial officers have at least heard rumors about Vader belonging to the Sith. As to whether they know about Palpatine belonging to the Sith, I can't say, but if they don't know that the Emperor is a Sith, that makes him even more terrifying: How could a senator from Naboo find a way to make a Sith Lord his underling?

Yeah, Vader isn't too shy about calling himself a Sith Lord and invoking the dark side of the Force, but Palpatine seems a bit more reticient about it, at least when he isn't alone with Vader or Luke. But then again, the Emperor isn't seen very much on screen in the OT, and when he is, he's hardly seen interacting with his subordinates (except Vader) at all.

So to sum up: Vader doesn't seem to have a problem invoking the dark side in front of whoever he likes (especially the conference room scene in ANH), but Palpatine doesn't seem to give a fig about it either way.

Ok, the Sith has been 'long dead' afa people know.. But it is funny how Jedis became myth and fairytales just 30 yrs or so after the was part of ruling (counceling) the galaxy...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's one thing a LOT of people i know have an issue with, with how the prequals did things. HECK if you look the time frame between ROTS and ANH is just barely 18 years.. How the hell in that time did lore on jedi all of a sudden disappear?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
That's one thing a LOT of people i know have an issue with, with how the prequels did things. HECK if you look the time frame between ROTS and ANH is just barely 18 years.. How the hell in that time did lore on Jedi all of a sudden disappear?


Considering that the Empire controls the Holonet, which is how most everyone in the galaxy gets their current events information, and also controls COMPNOR, which works very hard to indoctrinate and brainwash the galaxy's civilian population, it's not so farfetched. There are state-run propaganda news channels all over the world in real life.

Considering the Empire's pervasive control of everyday life in the galaxy during the Dark Times, it's eminently believable. Not to mention that people were traumatized by the destruction of the Clone Wars after a millennium of peace and wanted to forget the horrors of the War and were all too willing to throw the Jedi under the bus if it would help them forget. Remember how the Senate was cheering when Palpatine lied about the Jedi "assassination attempt" and declared himself Emperor? Granted, all this is all in the Expanded Universe and not stuff you'll see in the movies, but still...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Ok, the Sith has been 'long dead' afa people know.. But it is funny how Jedis became myth and fairytales just 30 yrs or so after the was part of ruling (counceling) the galaxy...
Yeah that always seemed weird given the later revealed timings. On the other hand, in 1987
    Prozac debuts in the US
    The Simpsons first seen on TV
    Final Fantasy video game released
    Work on Chunnel begins

I'm certain there are a lot of people for whom a time without any of those things probably seems like myth and fairytales.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going from other sources over time (regardless of how cannon they now are) most Dark Side users (towhit Dark Jedi) do tend to refer to the Dark Side as just that, the Dark Side. But it's done with relish. These are people who have already fallen into the flow of their more 'evil' or 'negative natures, as an example think about modern racial supremecists or religious extremists and what they say, same deal. Those who fall to the Dark Side are all to eager to proclaim the power of the Dark side, except for those very canny few who keep quiet about it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moirdryd wrote:
Going from other sources over time (regardless of how cannon they now are) most Dark Side users (towhit Dark Jedi) do tend to refer to the Dark Side as just that, the Dark Side. But it's done with relish. These are people who have already fallen into the flow of their more 'evil' or 'negative natures, as an example think about modern racial supremecists or religious extremists and what they say, same deal. Those who fall to the Dark Side are all to eager to proclaim the power of the Dark side, except for those very canny few who keep quiet about it.


Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Drunk on the Dark Side.
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