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Cardan-class Space Stations from Empire At War
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

godd@mn, even missile launchers have battery versions? That's nasty!

But yeah, my beam weapons are the battery version (I'll have to recheck the weapon stats to make sure they're correct), but where can I find stats for proton torp batteries and conc missile batteries? I haven't seen neither hide nor hair of such things in the Imperial Sourcebook, 2nd Ed.

EDIT: I'm doing a word search for "batteries" in the D20-D6 Starships Revised and Expanded book. By far, the majority of batteries are turbolasers. I found one or two instances of laser batteries and ion cannon batteries each. I only found one instance of a concussion missile battery and that was on the Trade Federation missile frigate. The only other missile battery I found was on the Yevethan Thrustship and that wasn't specified to be either a proton torpedo nor a concussion missile launcher.

I'm kinda leery of making my projectile weapons as batteries if the stats for such weapons are so sparse and non-uniform...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally, no i've not seen CORE stats (from recognized WEG books) with missile 'batteries'. BUT i have seen a few home made stat sites where 2 different space stations and a big a'55 ship had a quartet of them, used for breaking through a space station's shield, to launch some of those boarding missile tubes afterwards..
So these seem fitting to have some.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, those things are ugly...

As someone who spends a lot of time AFK, I do a lot of posting from my tablet and iPhone, which can get very difficult when overly large images push the margins out past the edge of my screen. I'd like to be a little more involved in this discussion, but is there any way to reduce the size of the images, or just include links to them?

Anyway, some initial impressions...

There seems to be a lot of redundant information in the capsules. I suggest paring it down, maybe creating a summary section that describes the Cardan-Series as a whole, then give each station type a description of the features unique to that model.

I wouldn't get too hung up on duplicating weapon system names word for word. The EU is full of contradictory material, and while Empire at War certainly used WEG as a reference, it's obvious they weren't too concerned with maintaining a flawless continuity (and it's not like WEG was internally consistent in the first place). I've never heard of Point Defense Ion Cannon Batteries or Missile Batteries, and film evidence doesn't support their existence either.

That being said, there is one Legends reference to Missile Batteries: the Torpedo Launch Clusters on the Chimaera in the closing battle of Specter of the Past. Apart from that, both the Victory I and the Super Star Destroyer are equipped with Concussion Missile Launchers, so the concept does exist. The thing is, in both the films and WEG, missile weapons are used sparingly compared to energy weapons. As such, there has to be some sort of in-universe reason as to why. IMU, ordnance has three advantages:
    1) Variable payloads (you can tailor ammunition for specific effects)
    2) Ability to home on a target.
    3) Provides smaller ships with the ability to damage larger ships under the right conditions.
IMO, the important question to ask when including missile weapons in the stats for these stations is, "what purpose do they serve?" (IMU, missile launchers on capital ships are primarily for orbital bombardment purposes.)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, as part of a broader thought on space stations in general, I would consider giving them a Space of 1/2 or 1/4. IRL, satellites and the ISS have at least rudimentary maneuvering capability to allow them to alter and maintain their orbits. I would think space stations in the SWU would have something similar. A Move of 1/2 or 1/4 would allow a station to move very slowly (1 or 2 SUs per round, even at All-Out), but still be essentially stationary...
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll get to work converting those images to links in a bit, especially if it makes it more convenient for you, CRM. Truth be told, it's a bit annoying to have to wait for those pictures to load up every time I enter page 1 of this thread also.

As for the repetitive capsules, these are essentially 5 different versions of the same class of space station, so there's not much differentiating one level from another. Even the WotC article I found that describes the L1 through L3 Cardan stations gave them the same capsule (although there it gave the capsule first and then went into the three different sets of stats). For the purposes of this thread I can just reduce the capsules in the L2 through L5 to just read "see above" if that will make things easier for you, CRM.

As for the purposes of missile launchers, I'm far more familiar with the mechanics/differences of missile launchers in the X-wing/Tie Fighter video games (gawds, I miss space sim games!) than I am with their functions in the WEG system. For example I know that concussion missiles are essentially anti-fighter weapons in the video games because of their high maneuverability and low damage and that proton torpedoes can be used as anti-fighter (in a pinch) or anti-cap ship weapons. But in the WEG system, judging by conc missiles damage being higher damage than proton torpedoes, I think the reverse is true in WEG. So I can't say with any certainty what the purpose of particular missile weapons would be.

EDIT: Got rid of the big pics in the original posts and replaced them by moving the links to their original webisites from the end to the beginning of the posts. This should make AFK interaction with this thread easier.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are missiles used for in Empire at War?
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
What are missiles used for in Empire at War?


Both concussion missiles and proton torpedoes are used in EaW. Both the Alliance and Cardan space stations have them, depending on the level of space station. Level 1 stations have a conc missile launcher but no proton torps, while Level 2 stations and up have at least one of each. As for starships, depending on the type, some capital starships have hardpoints for either conc missiles, proton torps or both. AFAIK, there are no other types of missile weapon in EaW.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, but what are they used FOR? What targets are they best against? Worst?
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Okay, but what are they used FOR? What targets are they best against? Worst?


Oh, now I see what you mean. The EaW guidebook doesn't go into that much detail about particular weapons; it just says which ground and space units are best and worst against other ground/ space units.

In other words, I can tell you what particular space units a Star Destroyer can defeat (as well as what can defeat it), but that won't help you much because a Star Destroyer has both turbolasers and launcher weapons.

I do know that proton torpedoes and concussion missiles pass through shields in EaW, according to the guidebook, so they're ideal for attacking capital ship hardpoints/systems.

EDIT: I'll post in a little while about which capital ships are good/bad against other units, according to the guidebook. Stay tuned.

EDIT 2: Imperial space units:

Tartan Patrol Cruiser: armed with laser cannons;
Good against: X-wings, Y-wings and A-wings.
Vulnerable to: Mon Cal cruisers, Alliance Assault Frigates, Nebulon-B Frigates

Acclamator Cruiser: armed with laser cannons and turbolaser batteries, a concussion missile launcher, a proton torpedo launcher, shields and carries TIE fighter and bomber squadrons
Good against: Corellian Corvettes and Marauder Missile Cruisers.
Vulnerable to: Y-wings, Mon Cal cruisers, Alliance Assault Frigates

Broadside Missile Cruiser: armed with concussion missile launchers and shields
Good against: Rebel Space Stations, X-wings, Y-wings
Vulnerable to: Mon Cal cruisers, Alliance Assault Frigates, Corellian Gunships

Victory-class Star Destroyer: armed with ion cannon batteries and turbolaser batteries, shields and carries TIE fighter and bomber squadrons (the guidebook says nothing about concussion missile launchers or proton torpedo launchers, but I'll have to check the game itself to see if they have these.)
Good against: Corellian Corvettes, Corellian Gunships and Nebulon-B Frigates.
Vulnerable to: Y-wings, Mon Cal cruisers

Imperial-class Star Destroyer: armed with ion cannon batteries and turbolaser batteries, shields and carries TIE fighter and bomber squadrons (the guidebook says nothing about concussion missile launchers or proton torpedo launchers, but I'll have to check the game itself to see if they have these.)
Good against: Corellian Corvettes, Corellian Gunships and Nebulon-B Frigates.
Vulnerable to: Y-wings, Mon Cal cruisers

Rebel Space Units:

Corellian Corvette: armed with 8 laser cannons, it is essentially a fighter and bomber killer.
Good against: TIE fighters, TIE Bombers, Pirate fighters
Vulnerable to: Acclamator Cruisers, Victory-class Star Destroyers, Imperial-class Star Ddestroyers

Corellian Gunship: armed with laser cannon batteries and concussion missile launchers
Good against: Tartan Patrol Cruisers, TIE Bombers
Vulnerable to: Victory-class Star Destroyers, Imperial-class Star Destroyers, Pirate Interceptors

Nebulon-B Frigate: armed with laser cannons and turbolaser batteries Good against: Tartan Patrol Cruisers, IPV-I Patrol Craft
Vulnerable to: TIE Bombers, Victory-class Star Destroyers, Imperial-class Star Destroyers

Alliance Assault Frigate: armed with laser cannons and turbolaser batteries
Good against: Tartan Patrol Cruisers, Acclamator cruisers, Broadside Cruisers
Vulnerable to: TIE Bombers, Imperial-class Star Destroyers

Marauder Missile Cruiser: armed with concussion missile launchers and shields
Good against: Imperial space stations, TIE fighters, TIE bombers
Vulnerable to: Acclamator cruisers, Victory-class Star Destroyers, Imperial-class Star Destroyers

Mon Cal Cruiser: armed with ion cannons, turbolasers and shields (the guidebook says nothing about concussion missile launchers or proton torpedo launchers, but I'll have to check the game itself to see if they have these.)
Good against: Acclamator Cruisers, Tartan Patrol Cruisers and Victory-class Star Destroyers.
Vulnerable to: TIE bombers
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Last edited by Sutehp on Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmph. It never made sense to me that combat shields would only be effective against one of the three main types of weapons in the SWU (laser, ion and missile).
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Hmmph. It never made sense to me that combat shields would only be effective against one of the three main types of weapons in the SWU (laser, ion and missile).


Agreed. Especially when we see the rebel fighters in Rogue One launching torpedoes/missiles at the planetary shield (but not the gate itself) to little effect.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on that, you would need to decide how missile weapons work in your universe (i.e. the one in which these stats will be used). If you're going with the idea of missiles not penetrating shields, then there would need to be some other use to which they are put.

If, however, you go with the WEG rules, where energy shields don't stop missiles, then missile launchers would be an ideal weapon to use against armored space stations, since WEG ordnance suffers an accuracy penalty based on how fast a target is moving. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a space station, though, since it would only be able to target other space stations (which would have to be towed into range by other ships).

I could see a station with missile launchers added on as an orbital fire support platform. For example, a long-term planetary occupation of a planet with an active resistance movement could use an orbital station's missile launchers to provide fire support anywhere on the planet, as well as providing a host of other services to the troops on the ground: medical, R&R, logistics & support, etc. Put the orbit low enough and it could even be used to deploy airspeeders or Quick Reaction Force units in the event of an ambush or terrorist incident on the planet.

Alternately, the missile launchers could be purely Starfighter-Scale, and used as anti-starfighter defenses firing guided weapons...
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Based on that, you would need to decide how missile weapons work in your universe (i.e. the one in which these stats will be used). If you're going with the idea of missiles not penetrating shields, then there would need to be some other use to which they are put.

If, however, you go with the WEG rules, where energy shields don't stop missiles, then missile launchers would be an ideal weapon to use against armored space stations, since WEG ordnance suffers an accuracy penalty based on how fast a target is moving. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a space station, though, since it would only be able to target other space stations (which would have to be towed into range by other ships).

I could see a station with missile launchers added on as an orbital fire support platform. For example, a long-term planetary occupation of a planet with an active resistance movement could use an orbital station's missile launchers to provide fire support anywhere on the planet, as well as providing a host of other services to the troops on the ground: medical, R&R, logistics & support, etc. Put the orbit low enough and it could even be used to deploy airspeeders or Quick Reaction Force units in the event of an ambush or terrorist incident on the planet.

Alternately, the missile launchers could be purely Starfighter-Scale, and used as anti-starfighter defenses firing guided weapons...


Wow, I like both these options (namely, station missiles as planetary ground support and starfighter-scale missile launchers). Granted, in EaW, we only see the space stations fighting in space battles, but I very much like the idea of the Cardans and Alliances providing orbit-to-ground support fire. And certainly, providing support services to ground troops seems very much in line with my perceived design of these space stations, especially logistical support. "Amateurs study tactics. Experts study logistics." Indeed.

As for anti-starfighter weaponry, I'm still on the fence about anti-fighter missile launchers, but then again, I don't want to go the route of the Golans, which basically had only anti-cap weaponry and relied on its starfighter complement to negate enemy starfighters. I want the Cardans and Alliances to have at least one form of weapon hardpoint dedicated to being an anti-starfighter weapon.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Granted, in EaW, we only see the space stations fighting in space battles, but I very much like the idea of the Cardans and Alliances providing orbit-to-ground support fire. And certainly, providing support services to ground troops seems very much in line with my perceived design of these space stations, especially logistical support. "Amateurs study tactics. Experts study logistics." Indeed.

EaW is a great idea-mine, but I would take their setting with a grain of salt. Both WEG and the films make it clear that Alliance forces don't make an effort to hold any territory other than what is absolutely necessary (pretty much just the shipyards at Dac), while depending on secrecy everywhere else. They aren't going to be engaging in any sort of long-term ground operation that would necessitate the use of an immobile orbital base to support it. The Empire will pretty much always have enough firepower to overcome even the heaviest Alliance defense, so even the most heavily armed Alliance space station would ultimately just be a well-armed target.

That would certainly change after Endor, of course...

So, since ordnance in the SWU seems more of an also-ran weaponry, with laser / blaster weapons being used as the primary, I've narrowed it down to a few specialty areas for capital ships.
    Concussion Missiles are used primarily for orbital bombardment, while still being useful for anti-ship purposes. Missiles of this type can also be fitted with a variety of different warheads for specific bombardment purposes (gas, plasma/incendiary, AP cluster, bunker busters, etc) allowing the ship to tailor its attack for a specific result when used against a planet.

    CS-Scale Proton Torpedoes, on the other hand, are heavier and harder hitting, but at the expense of range, and are pretty much used just to give smaller ships the added punch to take out larger capital ships.


Quote:
As for anti-starfighter weaponry, I'm still on the fence about anti-fighter missile launchers, but then again, I don't want to go the route of the Golans, which basically had only anti-cap weaponry and relied on its starfighter complement to negate enemy starfighters. I want the Cardans and Alliances to have at least one form of weapon hardpoint dedicated to being an anti-starfighter weapon.

If you're looking for Starfighter-Scale missile weapons, here's my take on it. The main limiting factor for guided weapons under my system is how many targets the launching platform's sensor system can lock onto simultaneously (equal to its Focus range).

The other consideration is ammo, which would be more limited for missile weapons (blaster gas being much more compact in storage). For capital ships and other large facilities, I've considered using Ammo Dice to limit how many missiles a ship can throw in a given battle.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're quite right about the Rebellion not wanting to hold territory during its insurgency phase, but I had to make something up to justify (at least in my SWU) why the Rebellion would have these space stations when holding territory is the last thing a guerilla insurgency should do. And yes, this did indeed change after Endor when the Rebellion felt confident enough (and had taken sufficient territory from the Empire) that they could declare themselves as a newly legitimate government without being a laughingstock.

In fact, I recall (maybe from Rules of Engagement: SpecForce Handbook?) that this was the original, 2-step plan of the Rebellion from the beginning: 1) Harry and harass the Empire on as many worlds in the galaxy as possible with hit-and-fade tactics to force the Empire to overextend itself, then 2) establish a legitimate government once the Empire had been chased off a sufficient number of worlds that the Rebellion could use as a sufficient base of power to switch to conventional warfare.

Of course, while the Rebellion was still in phase 1, and as you mentioned and we all know, protecting the Mon Cal shipyards at Dac was a very high priority, so much so that any attack the Empire might have mounted at Dac would have been far too costly to the overall war effort. Even if the Empire was successful in taking out the Dac shipyards, the casualties in ships and men would weaken the Empire everywhere else in the galaxy, giving the Rebellion ample opportunity to gain victories elsewhere.

EDIT: Also, I just tried downloading and installing the EaW mission editor so see if I could use it to gauge each of the Cardans' and Alliances' sizes...but of course, the mod was missing a few .dll files so naturally the damn thing didn't work and downloading it from a mirror location and reinstalling it predictably didn't work.

Ugh, it's like the universe is conspiring against me or something! Shocked Rolling Eyes
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