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Force Skills Upgradeable?
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Force Skills Upgradeable? Reply with quote

Hi there,

I'm having trouble understanding Force skills.

Let's say a Jedi has 3D in "control", and, for example, the control Force powers "accelerate healing" & "concentration".

As I understand it so far, whenever our Jedi wants to activate "acc. healing" or "concentration" he needs to roll 3D, am I right?

When upgrading Force powers, can you upgrade the skills only, or can you upgrade certain Force powers?

Example:
Could our Jedi upgrade "accelerate healing" to 3D+1, and leave other control Force powers, such as "concentration", "un-upgraded"? Or may the Jedi upgrade control only, and all the control Force powers would automatically upgrade to 3D+1?

It seems that Force skills (control, sense, alter) are basically the same as attributes (perception, strength, and so on), while Force powers are basically the same as skills (blaster, dodge, starship artillery, and so on).
But while you can upgrade certain skills without upgrading the related attribute, it seems that you can only upgrade Force skills, but not individual force powers...

Thoughts?

Hope I am making myself clear... ^^
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are only three Force Skills. Control. Sense. And, Alter.

Each of the Force skills has a die code, just like any other skill. For example, you could have a character with Control 2D. Sense 3D. Alter 2D+2.

By the book (although I don't always play it that way), when a character knows a Force skill, then he knows all of the powers associated with that skill.

For example, if a character has Sense 3D, then he can use any of the Sense Powers. He can use Receptive Telepathy, Magnify Senses, Life Sense, Instinctive Astrogation, and any other Sense power.

Sense 3D is the character's skill. Think of the Force powers as ways to use the skill.



Each Force power tells you how to use it. For example, if the character wants to use the Force Power Instinctive Astrogation, then the difficulty is 15. Since the character as Sense 3D, he rolls 3D, and if his roll is 15+, his attempt to use Instinctive Astrogation is successful.

Another example: A character wants to use Magnify Senses. The base difficulty is 5+, but this difficulty is modified by distance. That is, if the character reaches out with the Force to hear a conversation between a stormtrooper and his commander 50 meters away, then the difficulty would be 10. That's 5 base, +5 for proximity.

Magnify Senses is a Sense power, so the character rolls 3D, succeeding on a roll of 10+.



Some Force Powers are modified by relationship to the target, too.

And, there are combination Force powers, which are Force powers that rely on two or all three Force skills.




SUMMARY

1. The main thing to remember is that there are only three Force skills, which are Control, Sense, and Alter.

2. If a character knows a Force skill, then he knows all of the powers associated with that skill.

3. The Force Powers will describe how to use them. You roll dice by the associated Force Skill. That roll may be modified by proximity and/or by relationship.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
If a character knows a Force skill, then he knows all of the powers associated with that skill.

Some clarification is warranted since we're not in the 1e forum. By default the "Official Rules" forum refers to the 2e R&E edition version of the rules. In 2e, the character does not automatically know all the Force powers for each Force skill he has. He starts out with only one power for each skill at char gen, and then learns a new power for every pip each skill advances.

Of course we can still discuss all versions of the game and many threads here that start out about RAW diverge into house rule tangents (and that is ok). But if someone is asking a question about RAW and they don't specify edition, we should not assume they are asking about 1e when not in the 1e forum. FYI.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
If a character knows a Force skill, then he knows all of the powers associated with that skill.

Some clarification is warranted since we're not in the 1e forum. By default the "Official Rules" forum refers to the 2e R&E edition version of the rules. In 2e, the character does not automatically know all the Force powers for each Force skill he has. He starts out with only one power for each skill at char gen, and then learns a new power for every pip each skill advances.


So, THAT'S where I got that!

Thanks for the reminder. I had thought it was a House Rule, but it's a 2E rule change. Cool.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are certain force traditions where you DO improve the set force power, rather than the force skills themselves. Most notably are the Witches of Dathomir.
A typical witch might have accel healing song 4d+1, concentration song 5d, and so on where each force power is a 'song' to them..
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some clarification is warranted since we're not in the 1e forum. By default the "Official Rules" forum refers to the 2e R&E edition version of the rules.


Correct, I was referring to the 2e R&E edition of the rules.

Thanks for the clarification! The "1-new-power-per-new-pip" rule rings a bell! ^^

Also, found this in the 2e R&E edition:
Quote:
A character may be taught a Force power without improving a Force skill, but the character must spend five Character Points.
A power that uses two skills — control and sense — counts as two powers when being taught powers. (book: p. 141 / pdf: p. 139)





[/quote]
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In 2e, the character does not automatically know all the Force powers for each Force skill he has. He starts out with only one power for each skill at char gen, and then learns a new power for every pip each skill advances.
Given the number of additional Force Powers that were added after the publication of the original rule in all the various supplements WEG published I'd say it is necessary and reasonable to prevent all characters from knowing all Powers from day one. And limiting the number of power choices actually helps new players to make decisions when they are first starting out and are unfamiliar with all the many, many Force Powers.

Having to learn new Force Powers also bolsters the rationale in universe for there having been a Jedi Order and Master and Student relationships. If all students intuitively know all powers without training or study there is a lot less reason for anyone to need teachers or masters.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like a character not knowing all the Force Powers, anyway. That's why I said above that I didn't play that way, in my reply to the OP.

Like a mage finding new spells, it can be exciting for a player character to figure out new ways to use the force (in effect, discover a new Force Power).

I had forgotten that the rule was changed in 2E. It's been a long time since I've played 2E.
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is necessary and reasonable to prevent all characters from knowing all Powers from day one. And limiting the number of power choices actually helps new players to make decisions when they are first starting out and are unfamiliar with all the many, many Force Powers.


Yeah, I think that's a very good reason.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And since you control where/how they learn those powers, you control what powers they can learn!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I've been considering is working up game rules for the Sith Disciplines. On pg. 82-83 & 86 of the Tales of the Jedi Companion, it lists various areas of specialization for Sith Lords: General, Body, Energy, Illusions, Mind, Mechanical and Protection. Body, for example, would cover both the healing arts and the darker perversions of Force Alchemy; Energy would cover the various Telekinetic abilities, plus Force Lightning and the like.

While the TOTJC applies these disciplines only to Sith Lords, there is ample evidence in the EU of Jedi excelling in specific areas as well. The prime example is Corran Horn, with his proficiency at Affect Mind being offset by his natural inability to utilize Energy (unless he uses Absorb/Dissipate to convert attacks into usable energy).

What I picture is making each of the Sith Disciplines into Advanced Skills, available to Force Users of all stripes, which would then stack with the Control, Sense and Alter skills, but only when using powers of that Discipline.

The big obstacle here would be grouping all of the current Force powers into the various disciplines...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I like a character not knowing all the Force Powers, anyway. That's why I said above that I didn't play that way, in my reply to the OP.
So that's one way that 2E beats 1E? Razz

Quote:
Like a mage finding new spells, it can be exciting for a player character to figure out new ways to use the force (in effect, discover a new Force Power).
Yep.

garhkal wrote:
And since you control where/how they learn those powers, you control what powers they can learn!
For me its a conversation between the GM and the player where they agree on what the student learns or discovers more than it is simply about GM control. The goal is agreement on what new Force Power makes sense based on who the master is (if any) and what the master's goals are, what powers the Jedi has used in play or seen in play, what the student is doing in training and/or what what the student is researching, what the player wants their character to be able to do in the future, and whether the power seems like it will enhance play (or be bad for play) in the future. Obviously some of those are controlled by the GM, but some of them are player controlled or influenced.

And one other thing. As the Force user grows in strength, as the GM I will also give out some Dark Side powers to the student. Just so they may be tempted to use the Dark Side.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I like a character not knowing all the Force Powers, anyway. That's why I said above that I didn't play that way, in my reply to the OP.
So that's one way that 2E beats 1E? Razz .


Don't misjudge my zeal for 1E as a disparagement of 2E. I love 2E. It's an excellent game, and a good set of rules.

At this time in my life, though, I like the zip-bam-boom of 1E. 2E is a lot more crunchy.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough. I'm highly tempted to use 1E (lack of) initiative when I next run a game.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Fair enough. I'm highly tempted to use 1E (lack of) initiative when I next run a game.


I think that you might run into a problem if you do that.

The 1E and 2E Damage Charts are different. In 1E, if a character scores a hit, then some sort of damage is guaranteed. The minimum that you can do is Stun your opponent. So, if you hit, you know that you've at least robbed that target of any other actions he would normally get for the rest of the round.

In 2E, a damage shot can be shrugged off when the STR roll is higher than the damage roll.

I think that might cause some problems with the flow.



For example:

Take a simple situation where a Rebel is firing at a trooper, and the stormtrooper is firing back.

In 1E: Both characters make their attack rolls. The highest attack roll is taken first. If it hits, then the trooper's attack is considered an automatic miss (or you can consider that it never happened) as the trooper is, at a minimum, stunned and has lost all of his actions for the round.

It's a lot cleaner. Often the round gets short quick as characters start to hit.





In 2E: If you use the 1E system for initiative, the same would happen, but it's not a guarrantee that the trooper is down.

If the trooper shrugs off the damage, then he still acts.

And, sometimes, this can get messy.

But, it's not impossible to do in a game--just different than 1E.
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