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Converting SW 2e R&E for Fantasy setting?
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Converting SW 2e R&E for Fantasy setting? Reply with quote

I there,

I'm trying to use the 2e R&E rule set for a medieval-style fantasy setting.

I know that there is OpenD6 and D6 Fantasy, and so on, out there, but I don't want to go into that. I figured, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to convert Star Wars D6 to Fantasy D6.

I was wondering what some of the thoughts, warnings, ideas of you veterans out there would be concerning some of the dos and don'ts of my idea.

Here are some of my thoughts:

Melee combat will play a much bigger role than ranged combat.
Ranged weapons, such as bows and crossbows, and pole arms, such as spears and halberds, should convert easily when you simply take the stats from vibro blades and vibro pikes, Ewok bows, and so on.

Bonuses of a particular weapon pitched against another class of weapon can easily be governed by the advantages modifiers (+5, +10, and so on); for example: using a pole arm, such as a halberd, against a swordsman, should probably give the halberdier a bonus of +5 to +10 on dodge because he can keep the swordsman at a distance.

Ranged weapons, such as longbows and crossbows can be governed like blasters; with modified range and damage of course.
For example: Wikipedia says that a bow can have a range of 150 meters on average (English longbows more, weaker bows less).
A stat for an average bow could look like this:
Range: 0-50 / 100 / 150
Damage: 3D+2 / 3D+1 / 3D
Certain types of arrow heads could add bonuses to certain types of contexts, for example, an armour-piercing bodkin arrow head shot at a chainmail could add +1D to the damage total.

My only problem with this is that I don't know how to figure out the dice codes and pips. I mean, of course, there's always "trial and error", but I would like to hear some ideas on that.
For example:

Let's say, for the moment, that a knight (K) announces two actions in a combat round:
1) trying to hit a random part of the opponent's body with his sword
2) blocking a possible strike of the opponent with his shield


The opponent (OP), carrying a spear, announces two actions, as well:
1) dodging a strike
2) trying to hit a random part of K's body


K is rolling 3D-2 (4D DEX + 1D melee combat: swordsmanship - 1D for carrying a large shield - 2 for wearing chainmail - 1D multi-action penalty) for a total of 11.
The base difficulty for a sword is easy, so he doesn't injure himself.

OP is rolling 2D+6 (3D+2 DEX + 2 dodge +2 for using a polearm to dodge against a sword - 1D multi-action penalty) for a total of 13.

Thus, K is not hitting OP.

2nd actions:
K is rolling 3D+1 (4D DEX + 1D+1 shield - 1D for carrying a large shield - 1D multi-action penalty) for blocking with his shield, for a total of 14 +2D for 1/2 cover by shield, for a total of 22.

OP is rolling 4D+2 (3D+2 DEX + 2D polearms - 1D multi-action penalty) for trying to attack a random part of K's body with his spear, for a total of 21.

Thus, OP is hitting K's shield with his spear.

The large shield has a body strength of 4D.
Quote:
I know, it might sound high (and you could go down with the Ds dependig on the quality of the shield) but when you take into account that shields were made of sturdy wood covered with hides, and able to absorb a lot of the impact energy when curved, it makes sense that they were reqularly used by Romans and others back in the day. Plus, a knight with 3D strength wielding a sword with damage of ST+3D deals 6D damage! Shields would not have been in use if they couldn't deflect a large portion of that damage before breaking apart. Of course, getting these dynamics right is the key problem when trying to convert SW to fantasy.


K rolls 4D body strength for a total of 13.
OP rolls 4D+1 spear damage (ST 3D + 1D+1 [i]spear damage[/]) for a total of 16.

Quote:
My reasoning here is that a spear is basically a dagger, or a short sword-like blade mounted on a stick giving the spearman basically a dagger with range. A knife in the SW rulebook deales damage of ST+1D to 2D, so, picking somewhat the middle for a spear, you end up at roughly ST+1D+1 or 2.)


There is 3 points damage that penetrates the shield. The shield is thus "not seriously damaged" (according to the chart). This means, K takes no damage, and the shield served it's purpose.

So, I am trying to come up with sensible stats for weapons and armour to make it work.

Stormtrooper armour for example would be too weak for medieval combat.
A knight wearing a gambeson plus a chainmail would be very well protected against blows from batons. Against projectiles (bolts, and arrows) and warhammers or clubs with pointy thorns, however, it would not offer that much protection. The projectiles would burst the links of the rings in the chainmail and penetrate the gambeson a little (as I've seen in a documentary).
So, stats for armour COULD read as follows:

Gambeson
Cover: Torso full, arms & legs 1/3.
Body strength: 3D, or 2D against arrows and thrusting weapons.

Chainmail shirt
Cover: Torso full, arms 1/3
Body strength: 4D, or 2D+2 against arrows and thrusting weapons.
Misc: -3 DEX

Combined, a knight wearing chainmail over a gambeson would have a penalty on DEX of -3, or so, because of the relative weight of the chainmail. The penalty is relatively low as the chainmail's weight is distributed well by wearing a gembeson, belt and cords to support it.
If an opponent lands a hit to a protected area (torso, for example), the weapons damage roll would face 7D!

A sword, dealing ST+3D, would offer 6 to 7D damage (as knights are professionals, one can assume that they have an average of at least 3 to 4D body strength).

Sounds too high? Granted. On the other hand, would knights have bothered with all the layers if it didn't do any good?

Let me know what you think about all this. I am grateful for any links, thoughts, ideas, suggestions that might help with the conversion.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're trying to reinvent the wheel as a roundish, rolling type object.

At the very least, instead of dismissing d6 Fantasy (which is, after all, free as part of Open d6), do read it in order to as a minimum raid the equipment lists and to look at the skill lists.

Ranged weapons would likely include stuff like thrown javelins and other thrown projectiles, atlatls (which is completely distinct from AT-ATs), and so on. Then, there's siege weaponry which you need to figure out - perhaps steam cannon, but at least ballistae, arbalests, scorpios, trebuchets, and so on. Maybe primitive rocketry, like the hwacha. Maybe primitive gunpowder weaponry. Maybe magical siege weaponry.

You would need to suss out what technology level you would like to start at, and whether there's 'magic' in the setting. On the 'magic' side, you need to come up with some world-based thaumababble in order to build some game mechanics around it. Open d6 uses 'metaphysics'. Star Wars uses Control, Sense, Alter. I once used a system based on the 5 elements common in Chinese Taoism. You might decide to use the system presented in the Death Gate Cycle for all I know. Maybe there's a division between technology and magic levels as it pertains to your civilizations, and / or races. Maybe your elves are Bronze Age, but have the most refined magic.

It doesn't matter which system you use. Or whether you come up with your own or crib from someone. What does matter, at least to my mind, is that you decide at the beginning how you would like to do this, so that you can build it up as an integral part of the setting rather than tack it on later.
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You're trying to reinvent the wheel as a roundish, rolling type object.

Could be. Very Happy Althouth I view it more as trying to see if a wheels from the future can be used in the past. What I mean by that is, I try to find out what stats, skills, attributes of SW 2e R&E I can use for the fantasy setting without having to do a lot of conversion.

Quote:
At the very least, instead of dismissing d6 Fantasy (which is, after all, free as part of Open d6), do read it in order to as a minimum raid the equipment lists and to look at the skill lists.


Did so, and found that my ideas concerning weapon's damage die code were amlost identical to what the D6 Fantasy system recommend.

Quote:
You would need to suss out what technology level you would like to start at


I decided on 11th to 12th century European technology. Thus, no guns, no full plate armour, no rapiers etc.
Siege weaponry will probably not be needed for the likely scenarios.
Also, it's meant for a beginner group who happens to like fantasy (Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones etc.) more than SW.

Quote:
whether there's 'magic' in the setting. On the 'magic' side, you need to come up with some world-based thaumababble in order to build some game mechanics around it. Open d6 uses 'metaphysics'. Star Wars uses Control, Sense, Alter. I once used a system based on the 5 elements common in Chinese Taoism. You might decide to use the system presented in the Death Gate Cycle for all I know. Maybe there's a division between technology and magic levels as it pertains to your civilizations, and / or races. Maybe your elves are Bronze Age, but have the most refined magic.


I will, for simplicity sake, just use the Force skills and powers presented in the rulebook. For example, absorb energy can be used to block arrows, while Force lightning (could re-name it "Lightning Bolt" or "Baubillious" Very Happy) can be used as an attack spell (earning you Black Magic Points). Accelarate healing would be a healing spell (like "Ferula" in Harry Potter), and so on, and so forth.
Players can, of course, come up with their own spell ideas on top of that.


Last edited by NutUrFatha on Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following list is by no means complete. But it will suffice for the beginner adventure I am planning. Weapons die codes are estimates and are supposed to represent averages. Of course, there are stronger bows, or sharper swords than the ones presented in the list, but I am aiming at averages here. A player may ask for a stronger bow, for example, with a longer range - and if it makes sense for the hero to have one, it will be granted. The strongest bows, for example, with a top range of 370 meters may require a minimum of STRENGTH 3D+ to operate, but deal damage close or equal to a heavy crossbow. Common bows are less strong.

If not mentioned otherwise, all weapons have a difficulty of easy to use.
Damage total is, as usual, STRENGTH (ST) plus the damage die code.

Typical Dagger
Damage (D): 1D+1
Difficulty (Dff): very easy

Typical Sword
D: 3D

Typical Battle-Axe
D: 3D+2
Bonus (B): D+2 vs. helmets*

Typical Mace (not a simple club!)
D: 2D+2
B: D+3 vs. helmets*

Typical Morning Star
D: 2D+1
B: melee combat +5 vs. shields**
Dff: moderate

Spear
D: 1D+2
B: dodge +5 vs. batons; melee parry -5 in narrow spaces

Halberd
D: axe blade 3D+2; spike 1D+2, hook +2
B: dodge +5 vs. batons; melee parry -5 in narrow spaces; D+3 vs. helmets*

Lance
D: dismounted 1D+2; mounted: mount's ST+3D+2
B: dodge +5 vs. batons

Ranged Weapons

Tpyical Bow
Range (R): 50/100/150 meters
D: 2D+2 / 2D+1 / 2D
B: bodkin head: D+5 vs. chainmail
Reload Time (RT): 1 Round (can be sped up with penalties)

Typcial Longbow
R: 50/150/250
D: 3D+1 / 3D+1 / 3D
B: D+2 vs. chainmail; bodkin head: D+5 vs. chainmail, min. ST 3D required

Crossbow
R: 100/200/300
D: 3D+2 / 3D+2 / 3D+1
B: D+5 vs. chainmail
RT: 2 rounds (can be sped up with penalties)

Heavy Crossbow
R: 120/250/350
D: 4D+2 / 4D+1 / 4D
B: D+8 vs. chainmail; min. ST 3D+2 required (unless a cocking aid is used)

Armour & Shields

Leather Jerkin
Strength (S): 2D
Cover (C): Torso

Gambeson
S: 3D
C: Torso; 1/3 limbs

Chainmail, short
S: 3D+2
C: Torso; 1/3 arms
B: DEX-2

Kettenhemd, long
S: 3D+2
C: Torso; arms; 1/3 legs
B: DEX-4

Chainmail Chausses
S: 3D
C: Legs
B: DEX-2

Leather Helmet
S: 2D
C: 1/2 head

Chainmail Hood
S: 3D
C: 1/3 head

Helmet
S: 3D+2
C: 1/2 head

Heaume
S: 4D+1
C: head
B: PER-8

Round Shield
S: 3D+1
C: 1/3

Heater Shield
S: 3D+1
C: 1/2
B: DEX-2

Kite Shield
S: 3D+2
C: 3/4
B: DEX-5

*Reasoning being that axes and maces concentrate their shock power on a small area on the helmet, thus, not necessarily penetrating the helmet, but potentionally causing concussions.

**Reasoning being that morning stars are chain weapons. They enable an attacker to get around shields. Chance to hurt oneself goes up though.

Do you think any die code over- or underpowered? Thoughts?
[/i]
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Example

Click here for image

The knight on the left side (viewer's POV), for example, could have the stats along the following lines:

Strength 3D+1
brawling 3D+2
stamina 3D+2

Dexterity 2D+2
melee combat 3D+2; spears 4D
melee parry 3D+2; kite shield 4D
dodge 3D+1
drawling parry 3D+1
bows 3D
crossbows 3D

Perception 2D+1

Knowledge 2D
intimidation 2D+2

Mechanical 2D
siege weapon operation 2D+1
beast riding 2D+2

Technical 2D
armour repair 2D+1
first aid 2D+1

Magic sensitive: No

Armour
helmet 3D+2
gambeson 3D
chainmail, short 3D+2
kite shield 3D+2

Weaponry
spear ST+1D+2 = 4D+3
sword ST+3D = 6D+1
axe(?) ST+3D+2 = 6D+3





[/img]
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Converting SW 2e R&E for Fantasy setting? Reply with quote

Swords, spears, and armor are already statted out in D6. I think you really should look at D6 Fantasy. It's free and easily available on Drive Thru and other locations.

NutUrFatha wrote:
Bonuses of a particular weapon pitched against another class of weapon can easily be governed by the advantages modifiers (+5, +10, and so on); for example: using a pole arm, such as a halberd, against a swordsman, should probably give the halberdier a bonus of +5 to +10 on dodge because he can keep the swordsman at a distance.
+5 is an advantage, +10 is a pretty big advantage.

From the Modifers and Guidelines on page 77 of the rules.
Quote:
+1-5 Character has only a slight advantage.
+6-10 Character has a good advantage.
+11-15 Character has a decisive advantage.
+16+ Character has an overpowering advantage.


Quote:
The opponent (OP), carrying a spear, announces two actions, as well:
1) dodging a strike
2) trying to hit a random part of K's body
According to the rules, the OP isn't dodging a strike (i.e. using the Dodge skill) he is using Melee Parry to avoid getting hit.

Also I wouldn't create a -1D penalty for carrying a large shield. Nor would I be likely to treat shields as cover, especially when parrying with the shield. That all seems way too fiddly for D6.

Also +3=1D so 2D+6 is typically treated as 4D.

Quote:
Gambeson
Cover: Torso full, arms & legs 1/3.
Body strength: 3D, or 2D against arrows and thrusting weapons.

Chainmail shirt
Cover: Torso full, arms 1/3
Body strength: 4D, or 2D+2 against arrows and thrusting weapons.
Misc: -3 DEX

Combined, a knight wearing chainmail over a gambeson would have a penalty on DEX of -3, or so, because of the relative weight of the chainmail. The penalty is relatively low as the chainmail's weight is distributed well by wearing a gembeson, belt and cords to support it.
If an opponent lands a hit to a protected area (torso, for example), the weapons damage roll would face 7D!
7D is way too high for protection. Moreover, in Star Wars 2E and 2ER&E a hit is resisted by the total of target Strength + Armor. So a stormtrooper with 3D Strength adds their +2D physical armor for a resistance roll of 5D. Against a unpowered sword which does Strength+1D or so damage the stormtrooper is unlikely to be harmed.


Quote:
Let me know what you think about all this. I am grateful for any links, thoughts, ideas, suggestions that might help with the conversion.
I think you should look at the free D6 Fantasy as I think it is already optimized for what you are trying to do.
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NutUrFatha
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Swords, spears, and armor are already statted out in D6. I think you really should look at D6 Fantasy. It's free and easily available on Drive Thru and other locations.


Already did, and found some good suggestions - Thanks for the tip, peeps.
Quote:

According to the rules, the OP isn't dodging a strike (i.e. using the Dodge skill) he is using Melee Parry to avoid getting hit.


Interesting. What if OP doesn't want to parry, but simply evade without actually parrying? For example, couldn't the player state something like: "I'm trying to dodge the strike by dropping to my knees, so that, as a second action, I can try to attack his legs!" Would you still opt for melee parry? I always interpreted melee parry as the prowess of being able to parry a blade with your own blade, or Club, or hand, or whatever.

Quote:
Also +3=1D so 2D+6 is typically treated as 4D.
Thanks! Do you have the reference in the 2e R&E for that? I know that you upgrade skills and attributes that way, but I was unsure wheather that applies to adding up bonuses as well. Because, after all, you don't count a +10 modifier as +3D+1, do you?

Quote:
Nor would I be likely to treat shields as cover, especially when parrying with the shield. That all seems way too fiddly for D6.


I know what you mean. I view shields as a "movable cover". And the dexterity Attribute/skill/ is used to bring that cover into place.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NutUrFatha wrote:
Interesting. What if OP doesn't want to parry, but simply evade without actually parrying?
He isn't using dodge. If he has an object in hand its melee parry if not its brawling parry (but the attacker with a melee weapon gets a +10 bonus since they are attacking an unarmed opponent). BTW, this is a really, really common misinterpretation. Had WEG used the phrase melee defense instead of melee parry and brawling defense instead of brawling parry there would be less confusion.

pages 89-90 wrote:
Reaction Skills
Of course, when someone takes a shot at you or
swings at you with a vibro-ax, you can try to get out of
the way — that's where reaction skills come in. (As
explained in "The Rules," you can use a reaction skill
at any time.)
Here are the reaction skills and what they're used
for:
Dodge. Your character dodges to get out of the way of
any ranged attack
: a blaster shot, a bullet, a missile, a
grenade and any similar attack. (If your character
doesn't have dodge, you use Dexterity.)
Melee parry. If someone attacks your character (ei-
ther with a brawling attack or when wielding a melee
weapon) and your character has a melee weapon
(knife, vibro-ax ... even a chair or a mug will do in an
emergency!), you use melee parry to get out of the way
or block the attack. (If your character doesn't have
melee parry, you use Dexterity.) If your character
is defending against someone who is unarmed and doesn't
have sharp natural weapons, he gets a +5 bonus modi-
fier to his melee parry roll.
Brawling parry. If someone attacks your character
(either with a brawling attack or when wielding a melee
weapon) and your character's unarmed, you use braw-
ling parry
to get out of the way
or block the attack. (If
your character doesn't have brawling parry, you use
Dexterity.) If your character is using brawling parry in
defending against someone who is attacking with a
weapon or sharp natural tools, the attacker gets a +10
bonus modifier to his attack roll.
Later on page 90 we see even more support for dodge not working against melee or brawling attacks.

page 90 wrote:
Full Reaction. A character can make a "full reac-
tion." A full reaction — dodge, melee parry, brawling
parry
, lightsaber, vehicle dodge or starship dodge —
can be the only action the character makes in the entire
round.
The character rolls his dodge or other reaction skill
and adds it to the difficulties of all attacks made against
him that round.

Example: Thannik is getting shot at by three stormtroopers: two are at medium range (Moderate difficulty, difficulty number 13), while one is at short range (Easy difficulty, difficulty number Cool. Thannik decides to make a full dodge and rolls a 27. Now the troopers at medium range must roll a 40 to hit, while the trooper at short range must roll a 35 to hit him.
Unfortunately, later in the round a thug attacks Thannik with a vibro-ax: a melee combat attack, at Moderate difficulty with a difficulty number of 12. Thannik can't melee parry because he made a full dodge: he has to hope that the thug's attack misses.


Quote:
Quote:
Also +3=1D so 2D+6 is typically treated as 4D.
Thanks! Do you have the reference in the 2e R&E for that?
I do.
page 30 wrote:
You can split a die into three "pips." A +1 means "one pip,"
while a +2 means "two pips." (When you split a die, you either
get three "+1"'s or one "+2" and one "+!.") You'll never see a
"+3" — instead, the die code increases to the next full die —
2D, 2D+1, 2D+2, then 3D, 3D+1, 3D+2, then 4D ... and so on.


EDIT: I inadvertently recopied the last line of NutUrFatha's post. I've since deleted it.


Last edited by Bren on Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why shouldn't you? Though there's a slight advantage to rolling 3D+1 rather than taking a straight +10, the difference is fairly slight.

The expected value of 3D+1 is (3.5 * 3 + 1) = 11.5. The only reason, to my mind, to keep the +10 value would be to limit the number of dice - either as a convenience, or because you don't want to allow more actions.

Consider a Blaster skill of 5D+2. Not that uncommon. Pop a Force point, get 10D+4. The difference numerically between 10D+4 and 11D+1 is negligible - maximum roll for the first is 64, the second is 67, and the average is 39 on the first and 39.5 on the second. However, you have one extra die to drop on multiple actions, which may or may not be significant.

Granted, there's a 12.5% bonus - the range (1 - 10) on 3D+1 comes up about 37.5% of the time, which means it'll be 11+ about 62.5% of the time - so it isn't exactly accurate. The more bonus you change into dice, the more pronounced this effect is, because +3 has 0.5 lower expected value than 1D, and that means while the effect is small on smaller bonuses, it'll dominate on larger bonuses.

Here's an example: Consider +30. That converts into 10D. The expected value of 10D is 35, but they'll roll 31+ about 80% of the time, if my math isn't completely off.

So the bigger the bonus, the more skewed the result of a roll will be as compared to a straight up bonus.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:


So the bigger the bonus, the more skewed the result of a roll will be as compared to a straight up bonus.


Yeah, that's because 1D6 averages out to 3.5 instead of 3. So there is about a 17% (1/6th) increase when switching +3 to +1D. Now while this difference is minor with 1D (a half a point) when you start increasing the bonus/number of dice, you increase the difference. This means that for every 6 points you convert to dice you get a point extra to your average roll. So mathematically there is an advantage to converting.

But there are drawbacks, too. With a fixed bonus you have a certain minimum that you will achieve, all the time, every time. With a variable roll, that's not the case. And often a bad failure hurts you much worse than a really high roll can help you. For example, in combat, a low STR roll to soak damage is far worse, and is probably one of the leading causes of PC death.

There are also cases of getting very unrealsitic results when the dice are "acting up". For example a character blowing up a Star Destroyer with a hand held weapon thats to a combination of good damage roll and an horribly poor "soak" roll for the ISD.
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