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Which version of D6 to use to run Indiana Jones Adventures?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I dug my out my Indiana Jones Adventures D6 book from storage. The D6 System book is described as the actual rules to use for the game. The system has Coordination, Endurance, Reflexes, Strength, Knowledge, Perception, Mechanical, and Technical as the attributes. Starting characters get 24D of attribute dice and 7D of skill dice.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Is that a problem or a feature?


Problem. That's why WEG addressed it right away.
The reason why it is problem is that it makes the game really, really, boring once you've figured it out.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The D6 rules--especially 1st edition--were created to capture the thrills of the original trilogy. There's tons of fights where no one gets hit.


Uh, name one fight where no one gets hit.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Take, for example, a young farm boy, who's never been off his homeworld, swinging across a chasm, with a princess in his arms, while military trained stormtroopers unload on them. Nobody is hit. A multitude of blaster blots are fired.


Quote a few STs get hit before and after this, and it's all during the same fight.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Or, take, for another example, the opening scene where Rebel Naval troops fight incoming stormtroopers in the corridors of Princess Leia's ship! Tons of blaster fire. A few people hit.


Watch it again. A few STs and some rebels get hit, and all in the space of what, 30 seconds? An considering that there weren't a lot of characters in that scene, the character have to be better shots that they way the 1E rules worked.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Remember, in 1st edition, when a character is hit, there is always a result. Stun is the minimum result. A character, when hit, cannot shrug off a wound as is done in other versions of the game.


And remember WEG came out with the rules upgrade right away, including it in every adventure.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Combat is deadly.


No it isn't. That was part of the problem. Since you needed to get 3X the STR roll to kill someone, getting killed was pretty rare, and usually meant somebody was using a lightsaber.


Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The idea is not to get hit in the first place. There's no cushion, as there is in later editions of the game, with a chance to not be effected by a shot when hit.

I'm a fan of 1st edition, as written, just the core rulebook. Those rule, in my estimation, work extremely well.


Well, that's your estimation. Now virtually everybody else's practical experience from actually running the game is radically different. The game was less lethal than it's follow ups, and was way too much of a cakewalk for the PCs. So much so that it became a bore. If a PC dodged, he wasn't going to get hit by an ST, ever. Or by most other generic baddies.

Since there was no chance of rolling higher than the max of the dice, a player knew he would be untouchable if he got his defense up to 19. Not all that hard if you added the range difficult to the dodge roll.




Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:


Sounds to me like Rebels knowing the performance characteristics of their enemy's equipment and training.

Again, this reflects the original trilogy.


No it reflects a flaw in the ruleset.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

It's not that easy to hit someone in the original trilogy--at least for the non-super hero main characters.


But it's not impossible. In the RPG it was.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

And, that's the way it should be!


No it shouldn't be, becuase then there is no point in actually playing the game. If there is no chance of getting hit, then there is no risk, and the game gets boring.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Because, in 1st edition, if you are hit, you lose all of your actions remaining in the round! If your target hasn't moved yet, then he is robbed of everything he was going to do in that round when he's hit--at a minimum!

In later editions, characters who are hit can not only shrug off the wound, but they can also suffer a stun and just be -1D to all other actions--they still get to act.

The point: Getting hit is not as bad as it is in 1st edition, so the focus in 1st edition is not to get hit in the first place.


Sorry, but you're just wrong. The impossibly to be hit thing wasn't a design feature of 1E, it was a flaw. That is why WEG pretty much addressed it right away with the rules upgrade.

Running a 1E campaign, pre-upgrade, gets pretty boring pretty quickly. Since starting PCs were designed to be a match for ST or other generic bad guys, experienced PCs aren't challenged at all.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The way the 1st edition rules are set up, occasional hits will happen, but there will be a lot of blaster bolts flying--just like in the movies!


Have you actually followed my original post? Occasional hits won't happen because the STs can't ever roll over 18 on 3D.





Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:


To answer your question, I'd go with 1st edition, core rulebook, with no addon rules. Just like it's written.


And you be virtually the one person to do so. Even WEG made changes right away to make the game more playable.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, let me say that you are way too angry about other people's opinions to be posting here.

Chill out a little. It's a game, man. Not politics or religion. A game. Cool out.





atgxtg wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Is that a problem or a feature?


Problem. That's why WEG addressed it right away.


That's not a good way of looking at it. By your definition, everything part of SW D6 that was changed by SW R&E is inferior.

Plenty of people like 1st and 2nd edition, sans R&E.





Quote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The D6 rules--especially 1st edition--were created to capture the thrills of the original trilogy. There's tons of fights where no one gets hit.


Uh, name one fight where no one gets hit.


I was talking about the main characters. How often are they hit?

Main characters in the trilogy = PCs in the RPG game.





Quote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Combat is deadly.


No it isn't. That was part of the problem. Since you needed to get 3X the STR roll to kill someone, getting killed was pretty rare, and usually meant somebody was using a lightsaber.


In 1st edition, if you roll low STR, and someone rolls high, an outright kill can happen.

There are no Character Points in 1st edition.

Because of Character Points, it is virtually impossible to kill a PC in 2E.





Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The idea is not to get hit in the first place. There's no cushion, as there is in later editions of the game, with a chance to not be effected by a shot when hit.

I'm a fan of 1st edition, as written, just the core rulebook. Those rule, in my estimation, work extremely well.


Well, that's your estimation. Now virtually everybody else's practical experience from actually running the game is radically different.[/quote]

Look at the presumption that I haven't run games. I've run several SW campaigns using D6, with both 1st edition and R&E.

I like both version. Neither one is bad.

My preference these days is 1E.





Quote:
No it shouldn't be, becuase then there is no point in actually playing the game. If there is no chance of getting hit, then there is no risk, and the game gets boring.


Have you actually played 1st edition, straight out of the core rulebook? From what you write, I would not guess that you have.





Quote:
Sorry, but you're just wrong. The impossibly to be hit thing wasn't a design feature of 1E, it was a flaw.


So, they replaced it with a method whereby an enemy could roll a hit but just not damage his target. Which equals the same thing.

As long as a character in 2E has 5 Character Points (or even less, in most cases), he cannot be damaged.


Quote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

The way the 1st edition rules are set up, occasional hits will happen, but there will be a lot of blaster bolts flying--just like in the movies!


Have you actually followed my original post? Occasional hits won't happen because the STs can't ever roll over 18 on 3D.


This makes no sense.

Using the stats for NPC Stormtroopers and a Specialist.

ST fires at Rebel Specialist, who is 25 meters away. He needs a 10+ to hit. But, Rebel Dodges, rolling 4D and getting a 6. Now ST needs 16+ to hit.

ST rolls 3D, getting 17, and occasional hit.


Then, damage is rolled. The stormtrooper rifle does 5D. The Reb rolls 2D.

ST damage is 22. Reb STR roll is average, at 7.

Result: ST delivers a mortal wound to the Rebel.





Quote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:


To answer your question, I'd go with 1st edition, core rulebook, with no addon rules. Just like it's written.


And you be virtually the one person to do so. Even WEG made changes right away to make the game more playable.
[/quote]

Again, by your answer, no edition other than the latest edition is playable. Plenty of people don't play R&E.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You both make some good points, but lets try to keep this civil, please.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
First off, let me say that you are way too angry about other people's opinions to be posting here.

Well, that's your opinion. Wink

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Chill out a little. It's a game, man. Not politics or religion. A game. Cool out.


Don't confuse the fact that I don't agree with you as anger.





Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
.That's not a good way of looking at it. By your definition, everything part of SW D6 that was changed by SW R&E is inferior.


No, I said the 4 page Rules Upgrade addressed some of the flaws with 1E. BTW, I think you are confusing R&E with the 4 page rules upgrade that came free with all the 1E adventures.


Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Plenty of people like 1st and 2nd edition, sans R&E.


I've run into virtually none who played 1st edition who didn't incorporate the 4 page rules upgrade when it came out.





Quote:
[quote="Wajeb Deb Kaadeb"]I was talking about the main characters. How often are they hit?


Uh, Luke seven times, Leia twice. If you consider Obi-Wan to be a PC then him once (but it was a self sacrificing move), R2 twice, 3P0 once.






Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Combat is deadly.

In 1st edition, if you roll low STR, and someone rolls high, an outright kill can happen.


Not all that often. Since the attack has to do 3x the STR roll, and most PCs have a 3D plus STR and/or armor it doesn't happen all that often, and when it might characters spend Force Points (beats being dead).

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

There are no Character Points in 1st edition.


No, but there are Force Points. Not are Cps really needed in 1E, since it isn't as deadly as 2E. Any PC who rolls a 10 or better to resit a hit from a blaster rifle can't be killed outright in 1E. He can be killed outright in 2E.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Because of Character Points, it is virtually impossible to kill a PC in 2E.


I'm sorry but I just have a hard time taking your opinion seriously. 2E is far more deadly than 1E, and character points do not make PC death virtually impossible. I had a Wookiee PC with 6D STR who took a very nasty grenade hit.

Beware the Wild Die.





Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Look at the presumption that I haven't run games. I've run several SW campaigns using D6, with both 1st edition and R&E.


As have I, and my experience differ radially from yours. And then there is the generally consesus that 1E pre rule upgrade was buggy.




Quote:
Have you actually played 1st edition, straight out of the core rulebook? From what you write, I would not guess that you have.


Well, the you'd have guessed wrong, and not read my earlier posts very throughly either. I haven indeed ran 1E straight out of the core rulebook, and it very quickly got very easy and the PCs got very bored. And once the first adventure came out (Battle of the Golden Sun?) we incoprate the rules upgrade into the game.




Quote:
As long as a character in 2E has 5 Character Points (or even less, in most cases), he cannot be damaged.


How much 2E have you played? I've seen quite a few PCs get damaged with 5 CPs or more. Some even got killed. I've killed character in 2E with Battle Droids and they're pathetic.


Quote:
[quote="Wajeb Deb Kaadeb"]

This makes no sense.

Using the stats for NPC Stormtroopers and a Specialist.

ST fires at Rebel Specialist, who is 25 meters away. He needs a 10+ to hit. But, Rebel Dodges, rolling 4D and getting a 6. Now ST needs 16+ to hit.

ST rolls 3D, getting 17, and occasional hit.


Okay let's look at your "occasional hit" here. First off your rebel is rolling a 6 on 4D6, which is a less that 1% chance (or about a 1.16% chance of rolling below a 7), then the ST rolls a 7 on 3D6, which is about a 1.85% chance.
So your "occasional hit" is approximately a 1 in 4700 chance. That's a lot less frequent than in the films.

And that's assuming the ST can get within close range, which in turn would kick in a MAP and throw off his shot.
And then, assuming the PC manages not to be hit in the first few adventures (I'd say the odds are with him) then he can improve that dodge up to 5D or 6D and become ST proof fairly quickly.

Quote:

Then, damage is rolled. The stormtrooper rifle does 5D. The Reb rolls 2D.

ST damage is 22. Reb STR roll is average, at 7.

Result: ST delivers a mortal wound to the Rebel.


One really unlucky, not to mention dumb Rebel, too. With 2D Strength you'd thick he's have worn a vest or something.





Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Again, by your answer, no edition other than the latest edition is playable. Plenty of people don't play R&E.


And again you seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying " no edition other than the latest edition is playable", I'm saying (again) that 1E as written is "Not so much broken as having some serious flaws that can really bog the game down."


Just check my first post.

I also said that the 4 page Rules Upgrade addressed some of the problems. Just the variable difficulty scale alone made it worth incorporating.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
I also said that the 4 page Rules Upgrade addressed some of the problems. Just the variable difficulty scale alone made it worth incorporating.


The variable difficulty scales is covered in the first edition rules where it discusses interpolation.

But, as far as the quality of the First Edition rules, we'll just have to disagree, because I think that they are dynamite.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

But, as far as the quality of the First Edition rules, we'll just have to disagree, because I think that they are dynamite.


Say, how do you handle vehicles and starfighters using just 1E? Your Imperial Walkers are going to be tougher than your X-Wings.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

But, as far as the quality of the First Edition rules, we'll just have to disagree, because I think that they are dynamite.


Say, how do you handle vehicles and starfighters using just 1E? Your Imperial Walkers are going to be tougher than your X-Wings.


How do you figure?

1E has scaling, if that's what you are getting at. It's just buried in the text. With AT-ATs vs. starfighters, weapons are on the same scale, but starfighters should double Speed Codes.

X-Wing damage is 6D fire linked four laser cannons vs. 6D Body code on the AT-AT.

Or, the X-Wing can use a proton torp, which does 9D damage applied to the AT-AT's 6D Body.



When the AT-AT fires back, it's got combined fire twin Heavy Laser Cannon, doing 6D vs. the X-Wing's 4D Hull and 1D shields.

Sound about right.

What's your issue?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Bren wrote:
That's only correct for stun results. 2E is actually far more deadly than 1E.


Your logic is faulty here, though I see why you would say that.
You’ll have to point out a logical flaw for me to accept your judgment on that. And no, I don’t think you do see why I said what I said. You seem to have ignored most of my post.
Quote:
You agree that the stun in 1st edition is much more deadly.
No I don't agree that stun is deadly. Stun in any edition is not deadly. Stun can't kill you.
Quote:
1. It happens much more frequently that the Damage roll will be higher than the STR roll by only a few points.

Quote:
Stun effect happens the most often when a character is shot.
Both of these statements are untrue in general in 2E. The math is simple to determine the most likely result. It depends on the difference between STR and DMG. If the dice for STR and DAM are the same then in 2E the likely effect is either Stun or No Effect. If there is 1D difference the likely result is Stun. If it is 2D difference the likely effect is wounded and the outcome becomes more severe as the difference increases. A 2D difference is easy to get in 2E. A blaster rifle or heavy blaster pistol against a typical STR 3D PC is a 2D difference. That’s one reason why combined actions (which are ignored in 1E) are so deadly in 2E.

Quote:
Second, a stunned character loses any action he has not yet performed during the round. This compounds the effect of the stun.
Yes I am aware of how stun works in 1E.
Quote:
2. 2E uses Character Points, and up to 5 CPs can be used in a defensive roll. This would be hard to calculate, but if 2E characters normally have CPs, then they this greatly decreases the effect of any damage they may take.
Until they run out of CPs. Which happens quickly if they have to spend CPs to avoid damage. And you are again ignoring the ability in 2E for the typically more numerous NPCs to use combine actions to boost their chance to hit, their damage, or both.

Quote:
With 1E, there are no CPs. When a 1E character is hit, it is a serious matter.
Your continually saying that doesn’t make it true. Stun is inconvenient. It isn’t necessarily serious nor is it deadly.
Quote:
I've played extensively with both versions, and my experience with the game also tells me that 1E is much more deadly than 2E. I ran a 7 year R&E game where not a single PC ever got killed.

In my 1E games, lots of people got killed. The reason is the CPs.
For this to be true, you must have given out way, way more CPs than I did as a GM and far more CPs as awards than the game rules and adventures suggest if CPs changed your game from deadly in 1E to no danger at all in 2E. Did you use the combined actions rules when you ran 2E?

And for your 1E combat to be at all deadly your NPCs must have continued to repeatedly shoot stunned and fallen PCs until a lucky damage roll and a poor STR roll finally did enough damage to wound or otherwise damage them once they ran out of Force Points.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Bren wrote:
That's only correct for stun results. 2E is actually far more deadly than 1E.


Your logic is faulty here, though I see why you would say that.
You’ll have to point out a logical flaw for me to accept your judgment on that.


I say that because you do no take into account CPs, which have a huge effect on character wounds. The logic mistake that you make is that you are presenting apples and oranges under the assumption that you have apples and apples.





Quote:
Quote:
You agree that the stun in 1st edition is much more deadly.
No I don't agree that stun is deadly. Stun in any edition is not deadly. Stun can't kill you.


You don't agree that if I shoot you, and you then can do nothing in the round--that you're prevented from shooting back or even moving--that that is more deadly than if I shoot you and you can still act in the round with a penalty?

Obviously 1E stun is more deadly than 2E stun.





Quote:
Quote:
1. It happens much more frequently that the Damage roll will be higher than the STR roll by only a few points.

Quote:
Stun effect happens the most often when a character is shot.
Both of these statements are untrue in general in 2E.


Again, you forget the effect of Character Points.





Quote:
That’s one reason why combined actions (which are ignored in 1E) are so deadly in 2E.


Just for clarification, Combined Actions do enter the 1E ruleset, after the core rulebook, before 2E.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, I like the 2E ruleset. In fact, I love it.

But, 1E is a viable ruleset, too. It's not "broken". 2E is not a better system. They're both great.

What 2E has is more crunch. More detail. More dice. More throws for things. Dicing for situations in 1E is typically handled in a faster, seat-of-the-pants fashion.

It depends on what type of gaming you want to play.

Do you want more skills, more task rolls, throwing larger amounts of dice? Then 2E is your game.

If you want a quick, more streamlined game, then 1E is where you should look.

And, the beauty of the D6 system is that it is easily customized to taste. You can start with 2E and take some stuff away. Or, you can start with 1E and add more crunch from 2E until you get the ultimate D6 ruleset that suits your taste.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I say that because you do no take into account CPs, which have a huge effect on character wounds. The logic mistake that you make is that you are presenting apples and oranges under the assumption that you have apples and apples.
I don't take account of them because in my experience they have minimal effect on damage in any adventure with prolonged or multiple combats. PCs don't have a lot of CPs. They use some of what they do have for succeeding at active skills. In my experience they are more likely to use CPs to be missed* than to take the hit and then try to soak the damage. And they need CPs to improve their skills, learn new Force Powers, etc. PCs who can afford to blithely spend 3CPs here and and 5CPs there to soak damage just don't exist when I GM.


Quote:
You don't agree that if I shoot you, and you then can do nothing in the round--that you're prevented from shooting back or even moving--that that is more deadly than if I shoot you and you can still act in the round with a penalty?
Neither is deadly. Deadly is, well, deadly. Which 1E stun definitely is not. The consequences of a stun in 1E are greater. But they in no way rise to the level of a wound much less deadliness.

Quote:
Again, you forget the effect of Character Points.
I don’t forget them anymore than you forgot Force Points in 1E. I discount them as, unless the GM hands them out like candy, they quickly run out if used frequently, especially in a multi-session, adventure.

Quote:
Quote:
That’s one reason why combined actions (which are ignored in 1E) are so deadly in 2E.


Just for clarification, Combined Actions do enter the 1E ruleset, after the core rulebook, before 2E.
I was trying to stick to the original 1E rules since that is what you were making a comparison to. If you want to use the updated rules there are several other changes that effect how 1E plays. Among other things, stun is no longer automatic on every hit.

But getting back to combined actions, did you use combined actions when you ran 1E? What about when you ran 2E?



* Note too that using a couple of CPs to be missed moves 2E in the direction of the difficulty of hitting PCs that exists in 1E. But since that is CP driven, it is only a temporary effect. And unlike 1E there is the potential that the wild die will drive an attack or damage roll up to a level that it will threaten a PC. So there is never a safe defensive number in 2E.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Quote:
You don't agree that if I shoot you, and you then can do nothing in the round--that you're prevented from shooting back or even moving--that that is more deadly than if I shoot you and you can still act in the round with a penalty?
Neither is deadly. Deadly is, well, deadly. Which 1E stun definitely is not. The consequences of a stun in 1E are greater. But they in no way rise to the level of a wound much less deadliness.


Semantics.

We're just going round-n-round. I don't need to convince you.

As I said above, both 1E and 2E are great games.



Quote:
But getting back to combined actions, did you use combined actions when you ran 1E? What about when you ran 2E?


I didn't use them with 1E, as I run that straight out of the core 1E rulebook.

I did use them with 2E. Combine Actions can be quite helpful in certain situations.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:


How do you figure?

For 1E I use the scaling rules in the Rules Companion. I liked them better than the Scaling Rules that came with one of the adventures (I think. Or it could be the other way around-they are very similar and I'd have to check to see which of zeros out dice and which one caps dice).


Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

1E has scaling, if that's what you are getting at. It's just buried in the text. With AT-ATs vs. starfighters, weapons are on the same scale, but starfighters should double Speed Codes.

X-Wing damage is 6D fire linked four laser cannons vs. 6D Body code on the AT-AT.

Or, the X-Wing can use a proton torp, which does 9D damage applied to the AT-AT's 6D Body.



When the AT-AT fires back, it's got combined fire twin Heavy Laser Cannon, doing 6D vs. the X-Wing's 4D Hull and 1D shields.

Sound about right.

What's your issue?


The AT-AT does the same damage and can soak more damage than the X-Wing. Which is different than any of the scaling rules presented for 1E or 2E.

On the other hand, the X-Wing is going to be a lot harder to hit, and hit the AT-AT more often.

What page are those 1E scaling rules on? I want to take a peek at them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

I don't need to convince you.


Well, you sort of do need to convince somebody if you want to influence their decision as to which edition to play, and why. The same holds true for the rest of us. Smile

Although, since there is a D6 version of Indiana Jones, I'd think it would be better for some who wants to run an Indian Jones campaign to use that version of D6, at least at first, rather than converting Star Wars. Especially since doing so would help with the game stats for setting specific weapons, equipment and vehicles. That is assuming, he has or can get those rules.
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